#$@$&% # dovetail saw

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't know why the alternative to a cheap Asian saw is an expensive western saw. It's unlikely that cutting dovetails would wrinkle the saw, and since waves would most likely be straightened by the pulling action, it's probably that the teeth are a little worn on one side. Why not just buy a replacement blade? Or, if you're disatisfied with the use you got, return it. LV now has what appears to be a very, very good rip dozuki for $70, they claim the blade lasts for years.

Another good alternative is the higher end Japanese saws from Hida and Hiraide, with sharpenable blades.

Not to take away anything from the LN. I used a straight handled version in October that was wonderful.

Pam

narrow kerf

Tom Williams

>I'm no expert here, but my understanding is that the advantage of a narrow kerf is that the blade cuts with less effort, so that's not specific to dovetailing. Dovetails have to be cut accurately, of course, but once the waste is cut out there's no knowing how big the kerf was. If you use the fret saw method of removing waste then a narrow kerf is actually a disadvantage, as the fret saw blade may not fit.

Tom

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

John Vancil in Silverdale, Wa

>Will I had a similar problem with my dozuki saw when I pushed the saw forward I have a tendency

to widen the kerf. So I bought a 8in dovetail

backsaw with rip teeth. I have much better

control pushing to cut than pulling. John

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Will,

Sorry about the ruined work in your project wood. That really is infuriating.

I've never used the Korean dozuki, but do have a couple of thoughts. First, it's a crosscut saw, and you are making a rip cut with it. As Pam said, you will be much more satisfied using a rip saw to make a rip cut, whether it is a Japanese type or a western type saw. The slow cut that a cross dozuki will make into endgrain will naturally make you bear down to try to get it cutting better, and bearing down on a thin Japanese blade is guaranteed to force it off line. The only way a Japanese saw will cut straight is if you let the saw do the cutting. I mention this because it is not always intuitive--western saws with their thick blades do not have this issue.

Now if your blade is bent, maybe you better think about exchanging the saw. Is the blade bent, or the blade back? Either way, you might consider exchange and upgrade at the same time--to either the Professional Dozuki or the Rip Dozuki. If you go this way, remember not to force the saw--focus on keeping the saw hand moving in the same path (so you're not pulling the saw off line), and do not force the saw.

The option of using a western backsaw is also a good one, and only you can make that judgment. The only other thing I would say is, whether Japanese or western, get a good saw.

Wiley

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>BTW, you may want to think about sawing as you (impersonal) do about other woodworking operations, you only apply pressure in one direction, the cutting direction. When pusing a Japanese saw or pulling a western saw or pulling a western plane or generally resetting the tool to start cutting again, there should be no pressure applied at all, the tool's cutting edge should not be in contact with the wood. A file cuts in a single direction, as do most other tools; therefore, you run the risk of dulling the teeth and/or blades when they stay in contact with the wood and you certainly waste effort. So it's inefficient in muscle use and requires you to have to spend more time sharpening.

Pam

Pam...

Will in K.C.

>Thanks for the input. Pam, do you think I may have some flaw in my sawing technique that would then ruin any Japanese style saw or do you think an upgrade to that $70 dozuki from LV would solve my problem.

-Will

Re: Pam...

Will in K.C.

>You all answered my questions by the time I posted my response. I think I am going to relax the pressure on the saw on the push stroke (thanks Pam) and I am going to upgrade to a better saw (thanks Wiley). I am sure LV will understand.

-Will

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

paul womack

>First, it's a crosscut saw, and you are making a rip cut with it.

Actually, a dovetail cut is neither rip nor cross, as these terms are normally defined and thought of.

A normal rip cut is made along the grain, but with the saw at (around) 45 degrees to the plane of the grain.

A dovetail cut is made with the saw perfectly horizontal, thus working directly upon the ends of the wood fibres.

Any of those pretty pictures in the books or your head of rip teeth make little "chisel shavings" just ain't happening.

This being said, I cannot put a cross cut filing on teeth that small, so my DT does indeed have 90� filed (AKA rip cut) teeth :-)

BugBear

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

David Linnabary

>I agree with Pam the LN straight handled dovetail saw is pretty impressive. Though I will admit I have a pretty adaptive attitude toward differnt styles of tools. The only reason I prefer the western saws for dovies is only for half blind pins, the kerf is wide enough to drive a scraper into to finish the corner of the cut.

Re: Pam...

Don Clark

>I have one of those Korean saws from Lee Valley. I haven't used it a lot, but it is not a crosscut. It is a combination saw. I can't remember the Japanese name, but it is sort of halfway between.

Mine cuts really well and I understand that it is resharpenable. It could be that your saw was defective. The one I have has a feel of being rather heavy-duty. It would be interesting to me if Lee Valley were to inspect your saw to see if they could ascertain what happened.

Don Clark

A practical point

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Paul,

I was trying to make an important practical point. And so that it doesn't get lost I'm going to restate it:

Sawing into endgrain, whether full on or at a slight angle, with a 25-point crosscut dozuki with no raker teeth, is a miserable experience compared to using a rip saw or a saw like the LV professional dozuki which has raker teeth inserted every so often among the crosscut teeth. I didn't want the poster to continue to have to deal with that.

The reason I consider this an important point is that reputable dealers will still sell a high-tpi crosscut dozuki with no raker teeth as a 'dovetail saw', apparently on the definition that any saw with a lot of teeth is a dovetail saw.

Now it is true that dovetails can and have been cut with hack saws, and it is also true that the current trend toward using rip saws for dovetails is fairly recent. The last time I checked, David Charlesworth was using his fine-tooth crosscut for dovetails--it's the type he learned on back when he was in school. So tastes and opinions can change.

Still, after trying both rip and cross for dovetails, I'm going to say again to those who haven't already made their decisions: Please for Heaven's sake don't buy a new crosscut dozuki to cut dovetails with, unless it has raker teeth. And even then, rip is better IMO. The cross dozuki is wonderful for tenon shoulders.

Wiley

Re: A practical point

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I agree completely. While I've had no real problems cutting dovetails with a high tpi crosscut, it's just not that big a job, it's been much more pleasant and efficient with a rip.

Pam

Re: #$@$&% # dovetail saw

Gerry Mayberry

>David: I have not tried the scraper technique to clean out corners for half dovetails. I am aware of the method but was a bit concerned about splitting the wood. Could you provide some help with technique here?( a little reassurance goes a long way). I saw it in Tage Frid's book earlier. Any concerns about particular woods? I work mostly walnut, cherry and mahogany.

Re: agreed - rip saws are better for DT

paul womack

>Just to loudly and clearly agree with Wiley's practical point. Fine TPI rip saws are indeed more effective for cutting DT's.

My (pedantic) point was that it isn't actually a rip cut. Just goes to show there's more to saws than "rip or crosscut".

BugBear