Planing help

A few thoughts...

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>1. It sounds as if you did not hand plane the laminations before gluing them up. Probably not worth ripping it all apart and starting over. But doing so would have made the joints stronger and more pleasing--though they're very probably strong enough as it is.

2. You may not have oriented the grain of each lamination to run in the same direction. Doing so would make smoothing the top much easier, as now you'll be planing against the grain on some pieces, causing tearout, etc.

3. You're using a smoothing plane too early in the process. Use a longer (jointer) hand plane, such as a #7 or #8, to flatten the top first. Then use the 4-1/2 to smooth.

4. Finally, you don't have to be a purist and go through all this. While it's helpful to have a perfectly flat benchtop, it's probably more important that you just keep moving forward with it and enjoy the process.

Best, Ted

Re: Planing help

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You may not be doing anything wrong. The spots where it cuts are the high spots, which must be cut to level them with the low spots. The going may be a bit slow with a smoother, but eventually you'll get to flat.

Pam

Re: Planing help

Steve Kubien

>Hi Alberto,

As Ted said, a long plane would help at this stage (#5 jack, or 7/8 jointer). At the same time, what Pam says is also true, with a smoother (your 4.5) you will get there in time. I would be more concerned about getting the top flat than smooth (free of twist and serious dips and rises).

Others will agree/disagree (and I'm NOT trying to start a debate) but a #5 could rapidly become one of the most used planes in your shop as you get further down the slippery slope. You can get off ebay pretty cheap of go with a new top-flight LV, LN, Shepherd or woodie like Knight or C&W. Something to think about.

Take care,

Steve K

Ajax, Ontario

Re: A few thoughts...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Slight disagreement Ted,

I think that a flat benchtop is important...

Having gone the "move forward with the process" route, I wish I had taken the time when I built my first bench to get the top relatively flat. I spent about a year with a top that was convex and was wavey in some areas. It really made it difficult to do... well everything. It was harder to plane, harder to assemble pieces, and it meant that I could not use my bench top for any sort of reference. I was able to use my table saw top as a reference but I was limited by it's size and by the splitter/guard.

I already noticed the difference between my old bench and my somewhat complete new bench top which is flat. It's VERY nice to have it.

Yes you can get away with it...but it's something that I wish on no one.

;)

Re: Planing help

Alberto in Richmond Hill, ON

>What I don't understand is the following. Each sub-slab (for lack of a better word) in itself is flat because has been power planed. If I run the plane in one of those, there should be no high and low spots and therefore the plane should cut on the whole stroke. This is what is not happening.

Also, I need to plane the joint between 2 slabs so they end up in the same plane. So my rationale was to rest the plane in the slab that's higher so I can remove material and bring it down level with the other. Well, there the plane doesn't cut...

I know that the smother is not the apropiated one but, given the description I just made, I think (in theory) the #6 would do the same thing?

So I guess the question is; if I run a plane on a level surface; the plane should cut during the whole time it is in contact with the surface right? This would be regardless of plane size.

Am I wrong on this?

Sorry for the basic questions but the only reference that I have is Rob Cosman's video on hand planing (and of course it works perfectly for him :)

Alberto//

Re: Planing help

Rob Cosman

>Alberto call me on my toll free, 1-877-967-5966, see if we cant make that video work!

Rob

Re: A few thoughts...

Alberto in Richmond Hill, ON

>Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ted.

1. I didn't hand plane the individual slabs but they were power planed. I don't think hand planing them would have made a difference though. Also, my problem stand when I put the plane in one slab which is already flat (see my answer to Pam).

2. Yes, I did not and expected tearout which I planed to deal with by using a scraper. However I'm not getting tearout 'cause the plane is not cutting.

3. Yes, I know a bigger plane would be called for but I tought the 4.5 (or any other bench plane for that matter) would be ok for leveling just 3 joints (since the rest of the top is already flat). Am I wrong?

4. I'm not a purist but this needs to be done. Normally, when doing a table top for example, I would do it in less than 5 minutes with a sander. This time I thought it was a good opportunity to start learning some hand skills...

Thanks for the comments! If you had more send them this way. I'm eager to learn!!!

Alberto//

Re: Planing help

Tom Scott

>Alberto,

Just because you ran the original slabs through a thickness planer, doesn't mean that they are FLAT. It just means that they are the same thickness. There could still be variations along the length of the slab that would account for you not being able to take a full length shaving with the 4-1/2.

Re: Planing help

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>Alberto -

It could be that your power-planed surfaces have moved since you planed them, or that they weren't flat. Beginners tend to plane convex surfaces, i.e. high in the middle.

To begin flattening your top, go cross-grain taking a heavy cut. It's easier and faster. No need for the fluffy with-the-grain shavings until you are very close to the final surface. The 4.5 will work although a 6, 7 or 8 would be much better.

Use winding sticks and an accurate straight edge to gauge your progress. Good luck, and let us know how you are progressing.

Ed

Re: Planing help

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>If your plane sole is flat and if the blade edge is parallel to the sole and if you're holding the plane so that it's parallel to the surface and if you're applying pressure equally to both ends of the plane, it will only cut the high spots. Now that's a lot of "if's".

I wouldn't assume the power planer is producing flat surfaces without testing. Did you use a jointer prior to power planing? If not, that's a problem, as the power planer has no reference face.

The plane may not be cutting on the higher slab because that slab is level, there's nothing to cut. A solution for this is to go in at the edge of the higher slab. The way to do this is to apply pressure to the leading end of the plane, which forces the plane to level. Then as the whole plane enters the board, balance the pressure so the whole plane is level as the trailing end goes on the board. Then keep going the full length of the board until at the end, when the nose is about to "fall" off the board, you apply more pressure on the trailing end to keep the plane flat. So you'd plane the entire higher board down to level with the lower board/slab.

Another way to do this is to work on a diagonal, across the bench. I'd strongly recommend you get a jack plane to do this. The advantage of a #6 is it's longer than the 4.5, which helps you keep the plane flat/level over large surfaces; but, as you say, it's not substantially different than the 4.5.

Pam

Re: Planing help

Roger Nixon

>First, just because you powerplaned the sub slabs, don't expect a smoother plane to take a full lenght cut. You said the shavings were light and fluffy so you're most likely taking a cut of a couple of thousandths at the most. You bench would have to be very flat before you could take a full length shaving.

To start, open up the mouth of the plane and set the blade depth to take as deep a cut as you can without tearout. Plane at diagonals (both ways) to the length of the boards to level up more quickly. Use a straight edge to locate high spots and mark them with a pencil. Plane them down. The shavings should get longer and longer as you get close to flat.

Once the obvious joints and high spots are worked down, you really need a longer plane. a #7 size is minimal.

Re: Planing help

Dan Donaldson

>Might be interesting to take a straight edge and some winding sticks to see just how far off the surface is from flat. (not counting the edges from gluing) Maybe practice on the bottom first. If you can get that flat, then you will have something to reference for the top.

suggestion for rapid results

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Find a clunker No5 or 6 or whatever you like (ebay, flea mkt. or best of all Tod H., personally a 5 is my preference as I don't consider it essential to achieve plate glass flatness). Grind the blade(iron) in a convex shape on your grinder. You can do this free hand, as precision is not essential, just take off more on edges than in the middle and don't fret if not symmetrical. Grind so the middle sticks out somewhere about 1/16", or a bit more. Hone the blade a bit if you wish, but it is not essential(this statement may bring protests from purists). Set plane for a fairly deep cut and have at it. A plane set up this way will remove material, and quickly. If you try flattening a whole bench 0.003" at a time you could, if like me, soon loose patience with the whole hand planning affair. When the bench is "flat" by this means, which will be faster than a belt sander by a good measure, then move to the smoothing plane, or belt sander if the attraction of hand planning has worn off.

I suspect after glueing up and planning sections you then glued up all the sections at once. Had you glued them on one at a time it would have been possible to keep each one near perfect aligned with the previous. I did this on a 42" top and didn't have to plane at all.

If you loose patience, slap a piece of masonite on the top and use it. Some later day you can revisit planning it.

Use a Scrub plane

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Alberto,

I know that you don't have one, but I think that in this case it is the plane that you need. I made my bench top out of 2x4's on edge. It is 3 feet wide and 5 feet long. After the glueup not one 2x4 was in line with another. It just so happened that my LN Scrub showed up on the day that I felt the top was ready to flatten, and I flattened that whole top to the point that it was ready for my #8 in 20 minutes!

In you case I'd be inclined to set the iron of a scrub plane to take a "light" cut and than take it from there.

I'm not suggesting that you go put and spend the big bucks for an KN either. I'd go the e-bay route. When I bought my LN I didn't even know how to turn a computer on otherwise I would of probably gone the e-bay way as well. On the other hand I sure do love my LN Scrub, it is Beautiful, heavy, well made, and works Champion!

Todd O.

Re: Planing help

Frank Mutchler

>Pam, a point of clarification...a plane should cut a shaving from a level surface if the blade extends below the plane of the sole. Or am I missing something?

Roger, I think you've nailed it!

Frank Mutchler

>

Re: Planing help

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Not if the blade is just barely below the sole, there's often not enough projection to grab any wood, damhikt. Also, in this case it's possible that the sole is raised just enough by another surface.

Pam

Re: Planing help

Darrell in Oakville

>Yes, what Ed said...

Straight edge, winding sticks, careful observation of exactly where the high spots are located, and cutting down the high spots across the grain.

You might want to pick up a jack or fore plane (#5 or #6) to help with the flattening.

Darrell

Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User

Re: Planing help

mike recchione

>Maybe another post addresses this, but take this for what it's worth.

1) Someone already pointed out that the power planer doesn't guarantee that the sub-slabs are flat, only that they're of uniform thickness. If you continued to plane along the length of a sub-slab with a sufficiently long plane, you'd arrive at flatness when you took a full length shaving.

2) To flatten the benchtop, planing along the length of a sub-slab is NOT the way to go, even if it is the higher sub-slab. What you should be doing is planing diagonally across the benchtop to take down the high spots. You should alternate the diagonals, i.e. 45 degrees and 135 degrees in subsequent passes.

3) For something as long and wide as a bench, a 4 1/2 is kind of on the short side for trying. But you should be able to at least get rid of the ridges between the sub-slabs. If you really want to get it flat with hand tools, borrowing a #7 would probably be a good idea. It doesn't have to be a primo yuppie plane to do a workbench top - just reasonably flat.

4) I'd forget about scraping, etc. for a workbench top. The objective here is FLAT, not pretty. The purpose of the smaller planes and scrapers is to make bits that are not flat, pretty. To get to flat, you need a longer plane.

- Mike

- Mike

Re: Mike you are making

Frank Mutchler

>excellent sense! Using a #4 to flatten a benchtop may be possible but I don't want the job. It's not just that it will take a long time but it seems to me that without jigging something to extend the sole it may be a fools errand, especially on a wide benchtop.

I may be mistaken but in the context of working a large benchtop it seems to me that the #4 is better suited to smoothing an already flat surface. Also, if it's not used properly for smoothing it will very likely leave the surface less flat that when the smoothing process began.

Re: Planing help

Russell Seaton

>Your bench top sounds pretty similar to my bench top. 24" wide of 31(?) S4S red oak boards laminated together to get to about 2.5" thick. I think I glued up sections about 8" wide and then glued them together. Used biscuits to try to keep the top flat. Long ago I used the belt sander to get it sort of flat. Actually sort of cupped over its entire width.

Recently I finished flattening it. I took the 4 foot aluminum ruler and used it as my straight edge to mark where the high spots were. Then I took a Clifton #5 with the mouth wide open and cut off the high spots. Planing diagonally or with the grain. Then I took the straight edge and remarked all the high spots with pencil. Marking the high spots means putting the straight edge across the bench and moving the straight edge from one end of the 7 foot bench to the other. Takes a few minutes. Then I took the #5 and planed off the high spots again.

After awhile I was down to it being pretty flat so I pulled out the Clifton #7 and planed the length of the banch to smooth it out. Then out came the card scraper to get the final spots the plane did not seem to get.

Re: Planing help

George Langford

>Hello Ponders !

Several folks have mentioned the use of a straightedge to test the flatness of a benchtop, but no one has said exactly how it is to be used. Here's how: Apply the straightedge across one diagonal of the benchtop and see if it rocks or is high at the ends. Then apply it across the opposite diagonal. If the surface is twisted, then the straightedge should now rock on the high spot if it was high on the ends across the first diagonal. If the surface is bowed down in the middle, then the straightedge will again touch at the ends if it did so across the other diagonal. If the surface is saddle shaped, then it may appear straight with the straightedge across either diagonal. Now apply the straightedge across the shorter direction of the benchtop and then along the longer direction. You can figure out the exact shape of the benchtop this way. Actually, it's the same way that a granite straightedge is used to test the flatness of a surface plate, except that, for a surface plate, a dial indicator is used to obtain quantitative readings.

Any crummy smooth or jack plane can be made into a passable scrub plane. Just convert the blade edge into a shallow arc, observing the usual clearance angle so the blade will cut freely. Apply the ersatz scrub by planing diagonally, first on the high spots of course. Others have said this also. Occasionally switch diagonals so that there will be a crosshatch or waffle pattern to the little high spots left by the curved blade of the scrub plane. The first time you swith diagonals, you will notice a pleasant rippling feel to the scrub action, and short little chips will spew out of the plane. Once the benchtop is flat overall, then you can plane down these little high spots with your jack plane. The direction of the grain of the individual boards in the glued-up benchtop is less important while there are still remnants of the little high spots left by the scrub, but as you approach "perfection" there will be more and more need for a tight-mouthed plane such as a well tuned smoother to avoid tearout.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

George Langford, in arctic SE PA awaiting yet more snow