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Slow -speed Grinders

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Slow -speed Grinders

#1

Slow -speed Grinders

Greg Phillips

>I am looking to purchase a grinder. It seems to be the prevailing wisdom that a slow-speed grinder is the way to go. Ian Kirby asserts in his book "Sharpening with Waterstones" that the slow-speed grinders are plentiful and inexpensive ($80-100). As I'm shopping for a grinder, I am not finding that to be the case. The only slow-speed grinders I have found are the 1800 RPM Baldor 6" ($265) and the Garrett Wade 1120 RPM Taiwanese import ($130) and the Delta Shopmaster variable speed (looks like Fisher-Price).

Any opinions on the above or other options worth looking at?

Also, it looks like the grinder that Rob Cosman uses is not a slow-speed grinder and has a very course-grit wheel. Is the slow-speed worth having?

Thanks in advance, and happy New Year!

Greg Phillips

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#2

2850 rpm *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Greg,

For what it's worth, I use a Makita 6" bench grinder with a white wheel - doesn't burn the steel as easily.

Remember that when you're grinding tools, you can only go slowly to avoid burning the edge. The way I was taught was not to push the edge onto the wheel, but instead try to take a faint shaving off the wheel with the blade you're sharpening. Works fine, no problem and reasonably quick.

Larry Williams recommends black wheels at high speed, providing they're dressed well.

Cheers,

Andrew

hijacking disclaimer: No, I don't have experience with slow speed grinders, but I'm answering the second question.


Larry Williams article

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#3

Re: Slow -speed Grinders *LINK*

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>I believed the writings of the slow-speed advocates and got one from Woodcraft. Here is a similar one for $95.

Sometimes they have 10% off sales - I had a coupon for one that ended yesterday.


Woodcraft Slow Speed Grinder

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#4

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Steve Knight

>myself a belt sander will grind faster and cooler then any regular grinder. I don't waste my time i=on a grinder it is too slow and makes too much heat. the only down side to a belt sander is it eats up belts faster then wheels.

but the speed difference and temp difference is pretty amazing.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#5

prevailing wisdom is wrong *LINK*

Larry Williams

>Greg,

I've gotten so frustrated with a slow speed grinder where I teach a few hours a week that I've taken in an old grinder I used for years. It's a cheap worn out grinder but far better than the expensive 8" slow speed grinder the school has. I'm convinced anyone who would recommend a slow speed grinder is either a turner who wants to avoid honing (not the best idea, IMO) or someone who doesn't understand dressing grinding wheels.

There's more information in an article on our web site linked below.


grinding article

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#6

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>It's slow, but I like the Delta wet-wheel grinder, the one with a 10" vertical wheel. Price, IIRC, is between the two examples you've listed.

Put it somewhere you can afford to spill water on the floor - it's a messy tool. Also, you need to dress the wheel often (get one of those carbide "sticks").

After all those negatives I've listed, though, the up side is that the bevel will look polished, and the control is incredible.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#7

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Fred Krow

>I suggest checking out the following sites for recommended wheel RPM and composition. The correct wheel is determined by several factors, not only RPM.

http://www.woodtechtooling.com/Grinding_Wheels/SpeedRecommends.html

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0303rt3.html

http://www.woodtechtooling.com/Grinding_Wheels/grindingwheels101.html

I prefer the common belt grinder with 1" x 42" long belts, it is much cooler and the newer aluminum zirconia belts are excellent.

Regards,

FK

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#8

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Steve Knight

>and the longer the better. the wider the better if you can move the tool. if the belt has time to cool down it will last far longer. Plus you can run it faster to hog off faster.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#9

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Russell Seaton

>If you are getting a grinder for carbon tools, get a slow speed grinder. Woodcraft's slow speed Taiwan or China grinder is about $95 or so before various sales. It comes with two white wheels. 60 grit L hardness and 120 grit K hardness. Both load up quickly and need to be dressed frequently. Woodcraft also sells a $14 T shaped diamond dresser that works well.

If you're a professional turner or professional plane maker who uses a grinder daily, then the high speed may be better. But for those of us who only grind occassionally, then the slower speed grinder, with a properly dressed soft bond wheel, allows a bit more space for error before over heating a carbon steel tool. It takes a few seconds longer to grind, but a few seconds wasted isn't too much for this hobbyist.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#10

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Fred Krow

>Absolutely Steve, if you have the budget, the 2" wide x 72 long belt machines with variable speed motors are fabulous. They have a large selection of belt grit materials, including diamond coatings.

Regards,

FK

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#11

Re: Slow -speed Grinders - Tormak???

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I have used Japanese waterstones for the past couple of years, preferring these to the SS method in the preceding years. My sharpening time has speeded up a little with increased use of freehand honing. Initial bevels are still set with the Verital jig. But I must admit that I get impatient with sharpening and want to get on with using the tools instead. My preferred chisels are Japanese so I do not wish to use a grinder that will leave a hollow on the bevel (OK, or beZel). I am also not sure if moderately thick plane blades are helped any by adding a hollow grind. I would put them on my 1/4" thick HNT Gordon blades but not the (approx) 1/8" thick blades of the Replacements for Stanley (Hock, LN, Clifton, etc). Intuitively, I think that this is leaving a thinner cutting edge than desired and may (?) increase the likelihood of chatter (in planes) and chipping (in chisels).

So, two questions:

(1) Does a hollow grind degrade the performance of a blade (chisel and plane) compared to a flat grind?

(2) What is the opinion of users of the Tormak system. Yes I know it produces a hollow grind, so answers to the first question are relevant (I saw a showing of NYW where Norm made it look so easy - should I be admitting this on this forum?!).

Best wishes for a safe and happy New Year

Derek

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#12

Re: Slow -speed Grinders - Tormak???

Fred Krow

>The Tormek also allows use of the wheel side for flat grinding. I purchased an additional Universal Support Bar and Horizontal Base for mounting at 90 degrees to the motor axis.

The Tormek rotates very slowly and the danger of side grinding on the thick wheel is not an issue.

If the Aluminum Oxide wheel is too coarse, you can purchase a King Water Stone wheel at 800 grit however, this may be tougher to flatten for side grinding.

Regards,

FK

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#13

Re: Slow -speed Grinders - Tormak???

Joel

>(1) Does a hollow grind degrade the performance of a blade (chisel and plane) compared to a flat grind?

it doesn't (or it if does - it's marginal and don't worry about it) - also after a few honings the hollow is gone anyway - there should be no reason to grind your tools unless you are:

A) trying to get rid of a nick,

B) find a secondary bevel getting out of control and need to reestablish a primary bevel. (not usually an issue with free hand grinding)

C) on harder alloys the hollow grind does speed up honing and makes it go faster.

I have many chisels that haven't been ground since I bought them - no need, although I find myself on some new hard alloy plane blades hollow grinding one in awhile to save time.

(any power grinding or any sort will use up the metal faster than hand honing - which may or may not matter to you)

Larry Williams directions on grinding are right on and the way I was taught too. A well dressed wheel is important. White wheels run cooler and some brand new wheels just out run even cooler (just got them in stock - will have on my site in a few weeks - more later)

THe tormak's chief strength is the number of jigs avaiable for it. Otherwise way too slow and in my view not worth the money by a long shot. but a lot of people love the tormak and consider it a major positive force in their work.

On my high speed grinder - (c. 1978 for 49.95) I added a veritas grinding jig which isn't perfect but works well enough for me (and I think the best jig out there without building one from scratch). On narrow blades I free hand grind - It took a scrap chisel to learn how but it's a lot faster.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#14

Burr King

Bob Hackett

>When money isn`t a factor,this is the machine to get.10,000 knife makers can`t be wrong!Well maybe they can,but I wouldn`t point it out to them while they were holding a finished product(G).

Most folks who make knives or deal with sharpening edged tools even as a part time job prefer a belt over a grinding wheel.Turners would be the exception to the rule.I guess I`m not the average turner because I hone alot of my turning tools.Always swimming against the tide,I am.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#15

Re: Slow -speed Grinders - Tormak???

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>Larry Williams directions on grinding are right on and the way I was taught too. A well dressed wheel is important. White wheels run cooler and some brand new wheels just out run even cooler (just got them in stock - will have on my site in a few weeks - more later)



Interesting--what is the coarsest grit they will come in?




/jvs

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#16

Re: Slow -speed Grinders - Tormak???

Joel

>I think 60 - I have to double check

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#17

Re: Burr King

bruce in snowy mn

>I remember an article from years ago by Rudy Osolnik. He hinted that he kept his belt sander and a hard felt wheel running all the time. Just a quick zip on both the belt and the felt wheel kept his turning tools razor sharp. I've tried it, and shazamm, are they sharp. I wouldn't do it on a plane or chisel, though.

Bruce

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#18

Re: Some general principles

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>What follows it are some fundamental principles I put forward for woodturners. We hand tool users are generally a lot more sophisticated about these things than woodturners, but I think some of what I directed to that group may help set the stage for your decisions about a grinder (and the larger decisions about what to use for sharpening in general).

I don't talk about the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System in the following comments because the LVPSS isn't appropriate for most turning tools. However, it is what I use to form and maintain the bevels on all my flat bladed tools. Just in comparison to grinder speeds (which are also similar to most belt sander speeds), the LVPSS operates at 650 rpm and I find it plenty fast and aggressive.

Sharpening Turning Tools:

Some Fundamental Principles

This is a longer version of some comments I posted elsewhere. I'm putting it forward on its own and in this expanded version in order to foster some additional thought about the principles that underlie proper sharpening practice, and to call for us to then go on and test those principles in a scientific fashion. How sharp one wants their tools may be a matter of personal preference and technique, and how much one spends for a sharpening system may be determined by economic limitations as well as choice, but the principles underlying what is effective and optimal sharpening of woodturning tools can be (and to a great extent has been) determined objectively.

The questions frequently come up: How sharp should my turning tools be, and what is the best way to sharpen them?

In a sense, sharp enough is whatever matches one's sensibilities. I've seen people use tools literally as dull as a table knife, and despite the resultant bruising and tearout, those people were happy enough with the edge they were using. I've also read of Japanese workmen who would sharpen a plane blade after each stroke, just because they believed every cut should be made with a tool as sharp as it could be. So, I think there will never be consensus answers to the above questions, as decisions are made according to personal factors at least as much as science. Nonetheless, I would suggest that there are several issues worthy of consideration, whatever your particular approach to sharpening.

I consider four things to be important with respect to sharpening:

1. Determining and Obtaining the correct geometry

2. Repeatability of set up to maintain the geometry first established

3. Producing the least heat possible when removing metal

4. Producing the most consistent (�sharpest�) edge appropriate to the work the tool will perform.

1. Determining and obtaining the correctly geometry is, IMO, the starting point for all sharpening. If one does not choose the correct effective cutting angle, included angle, and shape, then one is not going to achieve optimal performance from the tool. Just what the correct geometry is will depend on tool and application, but there will always be some optimal geometry. See the books by Leonard Lee and Mike Darlow to explore the general theory behind this (there are others, but these are some of the more modern and accessible), and Jerry Glaser�s article in the March-April issue of Woodworker West for excellent advice specific to sharpening Gouges. A jig can be pre-set to achieve a specific precise geometry, and makes it more likely you will actually achieve the geometry desired. Having a stable vibration free grinding platform, and balanced trued wheels (if you are using grinding wheels) are also important to obtaining and retaining proper geometry.

2. Repeatability of set up to maintain the established geometry is highly desirable and will reduce your sharpening time, increase your tool life, and make the tool predictable in use. Renewing a dull edge actually requires removal of very little material, if you are presenting the tool precisely coincident to the existing geometry. Free hand sharpening will never allow for optimal repeatability, while jigs such as those that come with the Tormek, Jerry Glaser's, the Woodcut Tru-Grind and Oneway Wolverine, among others, make it much more likely you will repeat the original geometry of the tool. To quote Jerry Glaser, who has probably ground more gouges than anyone, ��it�s difficult�even with the aide of a tool rest�to reposition the bevel against the face of the grinding wheel exactly the same way each time, if you are doing it free hand. The usual result is a bevel composed of many facets, some of which may actually affect the edge. To compound the problem, the shape of the bevel gets altered with each trip to the grinder, so that in a short time, it barely resembles the original shape. And with a multi-faceted bevel, it is difficult, if not impossible, to hone the resulting edge properly. When the tool gets dull, the only recourse is another frustrating session at the grinder, and more expensive tool steel turned into grit on the floor.� While with a repeatable set up, ��you now have a bevel that can be easily honed because the edge and heel are clearly defined. You will also have a tool that behaves the same through all its sharpening cycles. And the tool life is extended.�

3. Producing the least heat possible when removing the metal is well established principal among users of hand tools, but is often ignored or overlooked by turners. Certainly high carbon steel can easily lose its temper when exposed to high heat, but HSS and other "exotic" alloy steels are not immune to ill effects. Serious Lathe, makers of A-2 steel tools, posts this caution from their steel supplier, Latrobe Steel: "Improper grinding techniques can affect the performance of high speed steel tools not only by the formation of grinding cracks and eventually breakage but also by the development of a softened surface zone. In many cases the visual appearance of this softened zone is deceptive since the amount of visible burning often appears very slight yet the microscopic effect can be shown to progress a considerable distance below the surface with consequent deleterious results on tool performance. This fact is particularly important to keep in mind when subsequent grinding/polishing operations remove the visible burn color by a very shallow grinding pass." So how does one reduce such heat? Four ways:

A. Remove the least amount of metal necessary, as David Ellsworth likes to say, �Don�t Grind the Tool, Dress the Bevel.� (If you are going to be removing a lot of metal, use a coarse abrasive. Jerry Glaser actually uses a 46 grit stone, but for most something closer to a 60 grit is preferable.)

B. Use an abrasive with sharp edges. (For a grinding wheel make sure it is a friable stone dressed often to reveal sharp edges; for sanding belts or disks make sure you replace them regularly.)

C. Apply minimal pressure.

D. Remove the tool frequently to allow it to air cool, or better yet, use a wet grinding system. (However, don�t dip a dry ground gouge in water. To quote Glaser again, �a water quench cools the thin edges of the tool much more rapidly, causing them to shrink more than the bulk of the tool and the edges may develop small cracks as a result.� One can see a picture of this in Leonard Lee�s book.)

As can be seen from the above, just reducing the speed of the abrasive moving past the tool (i.e., a slow speed, 1750 rpm grinder or sander) does not guarantee cool grinding�there are many other factors that together are much more significant.

4. Producing the most consistent edge appropriate to the work the tool will perform. What I mean by this is how regular is the edge. An edge formed off a coarse wheel may well have the intersecting angles be sharp, but the edge will be uneven due to the uneven surface of the stone, thus leaving an edge that looks, at best, like this V VVV VV VV V. An edge that is formed on a fine grit wheel will have a surface more like this vvvvvvvvvvvvvv. The tips of the V's may be equally pointed, but there is more side support to the more closely and evenly spaced tips. The widely spaced coarser V's are going to heat more quickly, and will break down more quickly. This is in part why a "sharper edge," which might be better called a finer edge, will actually be longer lasting than a coarser edge. The effect is actually more pronounced than the example implies as the variation is really in three dimensions rather than the two shown.

The importance of a refined edge (and indirectly, the other factors listed above) was actually tested by Robbie Farrance several years ago and was presented in Woodturning Magazine, Issue #70. Farrance compared the edge obtained off an 80 grit white wheel followed by honing with an Arkansas slip stone against an edge obtained using the Tormek. Using a sample of 16 pieces of wood, equally divided into hard wood and soft wood, he measured how much wood could be removed by the tools in a measured time, over a measured distance, giving a resultant depth or volume of wood removed. What he found (and displayed through graphs in the original article) was that the Tormek ground tool �was performing better than the dry ground, both in terms of durability of the cutting edge and the finished surface of the wood � the wet-ground tool gave the best results on a consistent basis, and far outlasted the dry-ground tool in terms of durability.� In his conclusions he wrote: It�s generally assumed that using a slow-running water�cooled system will be time consuming, but this turns out to be more supposition than fact � the evidence suggests that using a wet-grinding method gives a sharper edge and cleaner cuts with more than double the effective turning time between sharpenings� even after 18 minutes of continuous turning in softwood, the well ground tool was still cutting more than three-and-a-half times faster than the dry ground tool.� What I would say here is that it is likely his findings are not representing wet vs. dry grinding so much as it is demonstrating the advantages of preparing your turning tools consistent with the principles I have described above.

What this adds up to is that precision and repeatability are major factors (but obviously not the only factors) in achieving the optimal balance of tool life, sharpening time, and performance. For me, this means using a Tormek for almost all my tool edge maintenance, and using a jig like the Woodcut Tru-Grind or Oneway Wolverine with a coarse wheel for initially establishing any changes in geometry. One obviously doesn't need to duplicate my system to obtain a usable edge, but I would offer that the more your sharpening method adheres to the principles delineated (which the above system does so well), the better will be your cuts, the longer your tools will last, and the less time you will spend sharpening.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#19

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

Steve Knight

>been thinking of the 2x72. right now I have a 2x36 that runs off my grinder and is a very fast steel hogger. also a 6x48 that I grind all my plane irons on. I can grind 30 irons on one belt. I have the 6x89 but it is too much of a pain to setup to grind steel and the belts cost 3 times as much. but I never needed speed control really.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#20

David Barnett

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

David Barnett

>I have a 7" Baldor 1720 RPM grinder with highly friable Norton wheels (I use the white 80 grit and the pink 120 most of the time), with the Oneway wheel balancing system (superb) and Veritas toolrests and jig, and am entirely satisfied. I tried two imported slow grinders but returned them due to excess vibration. This was several years back. I've heard there are some good imports these days, though. The only problem I have now is making sure the Baldor isn't still freewheeling. Yeah, it's pretty quiet.

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#22

Oneway wheel balancing system?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#23

PSI...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>I have the Penn State Industries Slow Speed Grinder. Think it's pretty close to the Delta equivalent - not sure how prices match up now, but it used to be a fair bit cheaper. Works well, think the wet wheel's around 60 rpm. Makes the edge nice and sharp, but honing afterwards gives you an incredible edge...

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#24

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

kees laan

>I have the beltsandergrinder of LV and it's fantastic. Kind of Scarysharp with a motor.

Knives, chisels etc.

Have the video of Tage Frid and Mike Dunbar and the conclusion is: Sharpening is not magic.

kees

Re: Slow -speed Grinders

#25

General International,1750 rpm.

Bob Dodge

>

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