Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

Re: Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

If your post is a quest for opinions and not simple commiseration, well ...

Ridiculing Wayne's desire to retain his sweat equity, whether you agree or not, seems quite pointless in any forum. Doing it on his site? One might even call that petulant.

Seems to me that anyone who benefitted from the Pond should be sorry it closed.

P.

Ain't dat da truth.. ;-)

Re: Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

No, it was a simple statement. There was no ridicule involved, just a complaint about how the whole thing had been handled. And I was sorry it closed, until today. I think Wayne, rather than responding, just shut me up by destroying my messages and putting me under censure. Very paternalistic, too much so for me.

And I did try to do it on his site.

Pam

Re: Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

In my best Wayne voice:

"OK, folks, this thread has run its course. Let's move on."

Best to all,

Ted

Re: Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

I believe the use of the term "rats" was in reference to an earlier post regarding new names Pam. I am sorry the Pond is closing and I am surprised by your post.

You have gained and given much help over the last couple of years. You have, like me, enjoyed the free exchange of information and humor and community. Why so quickly the change of heart?

Matt - Los Angeles

Re: Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

Hopefully Ted will be less autocratic than Wayne.

I too was upset with Wayne's "It's my ball and you can't play with it" attitude.

Too bad.

Yes

Yours will be difficult words for some to acknowledge at this time when many are in mourning. However, they illustrate one of the ugly realities of the Pond. On rare occasion the censorship became public, but more often it was hidden while one or another legitimate view was silenced selfservingly and arbitrarily. I feel quite confident that the extent of this happening was far greater than most imagine.

I can also understand that current moderators will be reluctant for these topics to surface. However, I hope they will give as much leeway as possible to allow folks to vent and give voice to some of the things long suppressed.

Re: Yes

Indeed, Lynn. It clearly illustrates why an open, non-monopoly press is essential.

Pam

Let me say it once more...

I've said on this forum and others that I participate:

When I enter someone's else house, I leave my freedom at the door, and pick it up on the way out. I have my rules under my own roof and I expect my guests to honor my rules. If the rules and someone are not "compatible," he/she can always choose to leave and I can always choose to kick him/her out.

The Pond is Wayne's house, Wayne's rules. WoodCentral is Ellis' house, Ellis' rules.

I'm grateful that I am allowed to participate, here and at the Pond.

-- Hoa

Re: Why I'm not all that sorry the Pond is dead

What is unnerving about the pond (or any forum shutting down & closing off archives) is the IP ownership issue.

One of the most invaluable things about forums is the ability to search archives - this aggregated body of knowledge increases in value w/each posting.

I suppose one thing to consider, really, if people are going to spend a lot of time posting, is whether a forum makes some commitment that all posted content is in the public domain. W/the pond, it sure is a shame to see all that archived knowledge get walled off & subject to one man's caprices.

I think that over time, as people realize what has been lost (body of knowledge, articles, etc), and thanks wayne euphoria wears off, they will be a little sore like Pam. Especially each time they think "Hey, there was a long thread on NH, too bad we can't get at it".

Jay

Re: Nicely Said

When should Ted intervene?

I couldn't agree more with Lyn on this one, but I'm curious how others feel. When should/will Ted be removing posts and applying permanent censures? I'd like to get Ted in on the discussion.

Personally, I think that we can just about censor ourselves with Ted there just in case things go awry. Maybe moderation has insulated me from the true nature of forum, but that's how I feel.

I'm even a bit leery of Ted's attempt at steering of this thread. (To be honest, I just about jumped ship and started figuring out how to start a USENET group specific to handtools.) Although now I think I can see why he's a bit uncomfortable with the topic, I think it deserves to be discussed (calmly and politely) with a fair bit of freedom.

Well said, but...

I never liked that analogy. To me, it's more like a bar, pub, or club, in the sense that the reason for showing up is the particular mix of people. If the owner imposes the right kind of will everything is fine. No will, or too much of the wrong kind of will, and the place is destined to fail.

Unlike USENET, both The Pond's and WoodCentral's forums are not brimming with petty arguments. I like to think that's because of the civility of the participants, but more likely it's due to even-handed moderation.

I agree totally... please let us vent Ted!

Bill,

I agree completely. I was very disappointed in Waynes parting email on the support forum. I don't know Wayne, but have regarded him as very 'autocratic' also. Your analogy wrt the "It's my ball and no one else can play with it!" is right on.

I am hoping the new moderator will give us a little leeway to vent frustrations without the censorship so prevalent in Wayne's world.

Ken

It was a shame

when a few months ago, at the Pond, we suddenly lost some of our most valuable contribitors, such as yourself Lyn. I dont know why you left, but like you say, lots of things happen behind the scenes.. And what ever happened to Ben from Shepherd tools, I understand he was in fact banned from the Pond. Anyway, hopefully we can prove a handtool forum can operate smoothly with perhaps a lighter touch of censorship.

Moderator Notice: Why I'm not...

Hello, all--

Actually, I already am part of the thread. A couple hours ago I asked that we move on.

Here are my thoughts:

1. This forum will be moderated more tolerantly and patiently than Badger Pond. I don't mean to reflect negatively on Wayne, because although at times I disagreed with his temperament, I deeply respected his dedication. Accordingly, I'll be on Neanderthal Haven through to the end, and I intend to send him best wishes on the last day.

2. Alright, I confess, and I hope Pam won't mind my revealing: I sent her a private email expressing my sympathy with her harsh treatment today and promising that such will never happen to her here. We all know that Pam is one of the most upbeat, helpful, and nurturing minds of Neanderthal Haven. Some of my recent personal shift toward Japanese tools, including Shapton stones, is partly due to her sharing her experiences. I ended that email by asking her, as a personal favor to me, just to drop the thread--not to defend her comments, not to explain, but certainly not to apologize. I also asked her not to let my request turn her off WC, because WE NEED PAM.

3. Pam has been quiet, so I'm guessing she granted my request. That took fortitude, and I thank you, Pam, and respect you even more.

4. This thread has gone on too long.

5. At this early stage as Moderator, I do not have authority alone to delete, squelch, or evict. The current procedure is that I would make some sort of recommendation to Ellis, and my guess is he would likely give me the benefit of the doubt. But he and I hardly know each other (48 hours and a few emails).

6. Someday I will have that authority, but my personality is that such power comes with responsibility and need for restraint. I demonstrated these qualities professionally as a prosecuting attorney in New York and left an admirable record for restraint and problem solving(it also helps that I never lost a case). : )

7. Thus you will find more flexibility and patience here than on the Pond.

8. On a selfish note, how will Ellis view my early performance if I ask that everyone move on or end a thread but no one listens to me? Please don't get me in trouble on my second day.

9. Very importantly, we all empathize with the comments from some Ponders that they found out where they did NOT want to go once the Pond closes. They since have come here, so thankfully they were not referring to WC. But how do you think this thread looks to someone seeing our new Hand Tools forum (I've also mentioned in other posts that we are allowed to change the name) for the first time. Will this thread cause the loss of a potential member who discovered where he or she did NOT want to go...here?

10. Finally and most importantly, yes, there is a time for venting, even for grieving. And this is probably just such a time.

So here's what I propose:

Have at it, I won't stop the thread (assuming I could). But please try not to turn off visitors, as "the symphony always sound better when the entire orchestra plays." And Pam, in view of this change, please feel free to jump back into the thread; and again, thank you for your restraint in difficult circumstances. And everyone...try not to get me fired already.

Best to all,

Ted

Meet the local crank.

There might be a reason most ex-Ponders are seeing my name as the author of a post (possibly) for the first time. But I have been hanging around this joint on and off for a wee while. I admit that I'm fond of the light use of the censors scissors. I think I need a drink. Slainte, RJ.

Its a fine line(a little long winded)

A large part of the attraction to Neanderthal Haven was that there was a civilizing influence that kept spam, OT, and profane postings to a minimum. But with any censoring, the limit is subjective. Our Country's Founding Fathers understood this, and made provisions for everyone to have their say. They accepted the fact that we would all have to filter out the noise for ourselves, and that the valid and true would become evident through it all. Something is lost whenever we let someone else make these choices for us.

On a given day, we all have the potential to cross the line, especially when the topic is something we feel passionate about. The rest of us on that same given day may be inclined to let someone's indescretion slide or feed into it, again a function of human passion.

We accepted the Neanderthal Haven censorship in varying degrees. Most times to me it seemed just and even handed, but even when it seemed arbitrary, we moved on. The alternative was the spam, trolls, and flame wars of the Wreck. For this reason I think it was generally a good thing. And we always had the perogative to "vote with our feet".

That said, I personally think that the decision to pull the plug without making the offer to pass the baton to someone was hurtful. Maybe, probably the reasoning behind this decision was totally sound, but we'll always wonder.

After its all said, this decision was totally within Wayne's perogative. And it does nothing to take away all the good we experienced from his decision to create and maintain the Pond. We need to get on with it, and make the best of what we have. Which is a wonderful legacy, and an amazing community.

But in the mean time, please don't try to keep anyone from expressing themselves. Its a natural part of the mourning process.

Just my $0.02.

Greg

Re: Moderator Notice: Why I'm not...

Ted, I thought your request was reasonable. Plus I've said what I'd intended and just hope everyone understood that. So for me there's no reason to continue this thread; and I'd hope that others feel the same way.

Pam

Yow! Ted gets the medal!

Ted, I can see you're going above and beyond to mitigate this thread. I haven't even read all the messages (my dinner bell is ringing) but I'd like to tell you all that I would just prefer that we not use this forum, or any other on this site, to air negative opinions. There are way too many good, forward-thinking things we can and should be discussing.

I'm not glad the Pond is dead. I'm happy to have you all over to my house. Now let's let woodworking be the topic.

Thanks.

Ellis

Re: Yow! Ted gets the medal!

Ted,Pam:

BZ

Ellis:

WILCO

Greg OUT

Re: Meet the local crank.

Yeah....you seem to cause trouble where ever you go. If these new folks can get a handle on your accent and the funny beer you drink they might even put up with you like the rest of us have learned to do. :)

you are doing fine Ted

Ted, methinks you are going to be a great moderator. I did not respond to Pam's NH post because of the likely consequences (although I sympathised 100% with her post and sentiment). Nor here until now because you red-carded the thread. But now I may speak. {audible exhale}

It is a relief to be in an environment of articulate enlightenment. I believe that people can argue quite forcifully and still be acceptably polite (see any Jane Austen novel for excellent examples).

I joined the Pond for maybe the last two years and noticed a definite hardening to Wayne's approach over that time. My theory is that he was simply burned out. Tolerance levels wane when burned out. And I suspect he burned out from his inability to delegate and share responsibilty and CONTROL. (Fortunately I do not sense the same issues in Ellis' style). Whatever the reason, it got out of hand and his decision to close the Pond was the correct one for him. His unwillingness to even consider selling the Pond as is comes from the same control gene and was quite inconsiderate of the rest of us.

When he said "some will say I cannot do this but of course I can" he was shaking his ownership fist in the face of all the others that made the Pond useful and valuable and to me at least is a sign of less than perfect balance. Whatever. Wayne created a place that was very valuable and useful to me and many others. For that I thank him, but I for one have reached the level of acceptance that makes me thankful that we can now be somewhere even better and as polite but more tolerant of free speech. If we could just get those archives here (and archive what this place will become as well), then all will be well.

Thank you for allowing this important thread. Thank you Pam for throwing the first bomb (I sort of knew we could count on you for that).

I too have never lost a case. Ain't never won one either, so I guess you got me beat there...

All right! Looks like home to me...(nm)