Router bits questions?

Re: Router bits questions?

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

Barry, I've had great results from Whiteside (starting buying them years ago due to a recommendation from this site!). I have never had a balance issue or accuracy issue. Carbide seems to hold up MUCH better than the (no chipping holds edge) cheap bits.

Unlike some here I am not good enough to "fix" issues due to bad tools - so I try to obtain the best I can afford.

I haven't had any opportunity to get into the shop for the last year and a half. Wife has serious health issues, so I am currently Housekeeper, cook & chief bottle washer, while the shop is full of items moved from the house to set up her equipment (bed - oxygen machine etc.).

Re: Router bits questions?

Terry Dyck

I have found Lee Valley and CMT bits to be worth the price. They are definitely sharper, probably due to a better grade of carbide. I have used Freud and they seem to last as well.

Re: Router bits questions?

William Duffield

I use mostly Whiteside and Freud bits, and also some Jesada.

Ditto

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I order from Lee Valley if they have what I need. I like supporting a company that supports us.

Re: Router bits questions?

John in New Mexico

I've only had issues with those really cheap ones I mentioned in another post. No idea if the outfit is still around even.

Never had issues with Whiteside or Amana. Both are excellent. I have several Woodcraft branded bits, they seem fine, and several Freuds which also seem fine. I have a Freud multi-rabbet set that has chipped, but it has also been used hard over 20+ years.

I currently buy a lot of Magnate bits for specialty use. They have a 2" cut length flush cut that I use for this cut:

https://vimeo.com/576987536

They also supply the only 7/8" ball cutter I ever found - that is one I use for another odd application. Not sure how they are on price, seem cheap enough to me, but not everyone views cheap and expensive in the same way.

Also Whiteside

Bruce, a MN Galoot

More expensive, sharper, better grade of carbide, last forever.

Re: Router bits questions?

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Well, now we know what your belt buckles looks like 👍

Re: Router bits questions?

John in New Mexico

Yeah.... kinda a goofy shot

I must have done that cut 500 times or more by now, but it still freaks me out a little.

Re: Router bits questions?

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Climb cutting with a 2” bit would freak me out, too.

Re: Another vote for Whiteside

Hank Knight

My local tool shop stocked CMT for years and I have a bunch of them. I like them a lot. My supplier discontinued CMT and went to Freud exclusively. I have a bunch of them too, but I don't like them as well as I do ther CMTs. They don't seem as sharp or as durable. Recently I've been using Whiteside and they are a cut above the rest - very sharp, accurate and last seemingly forever. I will contunue to buy Whitesides in the future.

Re: Router bits questions?

John in New Mexico

Is that a climb cut? I don't even know the lingo, I thought that was cutting with the bit rotation rather than against it.

Scary thing to me is that its end grain. The one in the video is beech, and the thickness being trimmed is less than 1/16". I do those in walnut too, and that tends to be an easier cut but it still needs to be light. I get about 80 cuts out of a bit in walnut, maybe half that in beech.

First jig I made for that job was wood - way too flexible. I've rebuilt the aluminum one once so far, it holds up pretty good.

Kanefusa

Mark Hennebury

The best router bit that i have ever used was made by the Japanese company Kanefusa.

The problem is who can sharpen them?

That is a way bigger problem than you may imagine. Just another rabbit hole to get lost in.

Most business is about business, so they go for the low hanging fruit, which means they will sharpen to what is "good enough" for the general public. They wont be setup for doing second operations with superfine honing wheels to provide mirror finishes for the one in a thousand customer that may ask for it. You can get great router bits that do exceptional work, but once they are dull what are you going to do? You could set up to sharpen them yourself, but you should buckle-up for that ride.

Re: Kanefusa

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have router bits sharpened regularly by Misenheimer in Morristown, TN. In fact I have some there now.

Re: Kanefusa

John in New Mexico

I would bet that shops which also sharpen bits for machine shops would do the extra steps on request.

Re: Kanefusa

Michael Todrin

What is that machine Mark? Can you say more about it?

Re: Kanefusa

Mark Hennebury

The Machine is a tool and cutter grinder made by Hembrug in Holland, makers of ultra high precision lathes and grinders. i bought it to sharpen router bits and other cutters. I started out using hand tools, learned how to sharpen chisels and planes., Got great surface finish from those tools, then started adding power tools and was a little disappointed that they weren't as good surface finish. The best router bits that i found were Stanley super sharp... then i got a Kanefusa... a different world! these router bits had mirrors on them! cut hard maple like butter! You could look into the carbide and see a perfect mirror reflection! You could not see any scratches, absolute perfect mirror image! Flawless finish surface. The problem was.. who could could sharpen them! I asked around, one sharpening shop owner said he couldn't... then he thought about it for a bit and said that he could, technically at least. He then explained that he had the machines that could do it, but it would require an extra operation of finish honing, and an extra superfine honing wheel, extra time and expense, and in fifteen years that he had been in business, no one else had asked. He said that his customers were okay with what he supplied! This should shake you! This is mind blowing, or at least it was to me. To realize that there is so much more possible, but that we only get what we know to ask for or are willing to accept! If we don't know how good things can be and we don't push for it, we won't get it. That was a turning point for me. So i did some research, the Kanefusa bits were high grade micro-grade carbide, with a superfine finish. So I thought that if no one would sharpen them to the original quality then I would, so I bought a tool and cutter grinder, then i checked who made superfine grinding wheels and ended up calling a company from Switzerland, the North American rep visited my shop shop with some sample grinding wheels. I asked to see the superfine 10 micron and finer wheels and was told that although the company makes them, they don't sell them in north America! There was a pattern here! I could order them from Switzerland. Then i checked into getting custom wheels made and got an education about grinding, that explained about hills and valley's, vibration and precision. Basically, it ain't no point putting racing wheels on a pickup truck! So if you want high precision finish you have to high precision grinding wheels on a high precision tool and cutter grinder... so I had to upgrade and get a better tool and cutter grinder. The Tool and cutter grinder in the photo weighs over 2000lb and has a massive column, it was a pretty serious machine, that did a pretty nice job.

It is all quite fascinating to get involved with.... the search for absolute is a bottomless pit.

Two questions

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If you want a mirror finish on carbide why not do it yourself with diamond hones? It would seem a simple matter to go from the usual 600 grit finish to whatever with diamond of the right particle size.

What are you milling with this carbide that this mirror finish makes any difference? Light sanding gets my carbide milled profiles to where I need the refinement to be for finishing. Do you suppose that shops don't refine carbide edges to the degree you desire because nobody else sees the benefit?

I see the need for sharpening. This "razor edge" is not going to remain a razor edge for very much use. How many feet of wood gets milled before this extra sharp edge leaves the same surface as a fresh 600 grit edge?

Re: Two questions

Mark Hennebury

Bill you are right in what you say;

Sharp is an everchanging range. The first stroke of a freshly sharpened hand plane will produce the finest finish, and it is downhill from there on out, as the blade edge is dulling with each stroke and throughout the stroke.

People sharpen their tools to what is acceptable to them, they use a plane until they feel or see a difference, then they re-sharpen and start again. People have different views on what their own range is to them. Nobody needs to use a handplane! Some people use 1000 grit stone to sharpen, some have 30,000 grit stones. Knife edges wear constantly during use, how often you sharpen is up to you.

Sharp, well designed tools and high precision machines, do better work, easier and more efficiently.

Having the ability to sharpen your own tools, means that you can keep the edge in that zone that you want.

There is of course a balance between what is of practical value and what is obsessive.

As in all things that humans do, there are some that want to push the limits, to see how far you can go, they are the ones that make all of the improvements to cutting tools and machines, some of which become the new standards from which we all benefit. Like Tersa head planers for instance.

The Japanese make and sell a lot of supersurfacers....in Japan. In North America, they are mostly unknown, and don't sell, because nobody sees the value of all that extra time and expense for a little nicer planed wood surface. In Europe swing chisel mortisers are big, in North America, not so much, everyone here is far more familiar with hollow chisel mortisers.

You can get by doing things many ways, and you can hone your router bits by hand and get a pretty good finish. or send your stuff out to sharpening shops, It is just nice to have the sharpening equipment and do it yourself. I got fed up with the results from several sharpening shops that did less than I expected, so I am happier doing my own sharpening. I also like experimenting with different tool geometry and having my own equipment allowed me to explore.

Re: Two questions

David Weaver

It's possible that the second treatment of the edge (very fine) would yield edge life proportional to the cost of having it done (depending on what that cost is).

When we tested plane irons, I saw an increase in edge life over typical finish stones to 1 micron diamonds of about 20%. But you have to plane something that doesn't damage the edge to get that edge life.

I wouldn't be surprised if volume of wood removed by these polished bits is higher before they are totally dull (as in, if you'd use them for finish work only when fresh, but insist on running them until they don't feed well, they should go longer than a normal router bit).

I don't think most people care about that kind of stuff, though, because it's not easy to quantify. When I mention the edge life improvement of a refined edge on a foreign forum, and how different the feel is (and effort) on foreign forums where some of the folks are career joiners (vs. surface planers for a final finish), there's usually no belief that a plane works better when it's sharper.

Where does that translate for routers? If the bit is sharper, it can probably remove more volume in each pass, too. But efficiency is a matter of competition. If nobody else is more efficient, then the engineering challenge of saving a few pennies isn't there. And the curse may be - if you can find the efficiency, eventually the technique becomes the commodity work standard.

As far as what I saw on plane irons, the edge life improvement was a surprise. The difference in side by side effort was a surprise (steve elliot had done the edge life improvement before, so it wasn't that much of a surprise, but sometimes you expect you might get a different result just out of some kind of test parameters). What was also a surprise is that as the iron approaches functional dullness for us (which is far sooner than machine dullness), the rate that material was being removed from the edge of the plane iron increased (I would suspect this is the case on tooling, too).

In commodity metal milling, this stuff probably becomes very important quickly.

But back to the original thing I've found since doing my testing - I can't get the sharpening intervals to be the same in regular work, because they're not like planing wood that's already planed and flat - avoiding some kind of nicking or damage over the life of an edge is hard. I would imagine the adherence to routine and care by japanese users would have something to do with being able to get that with highly refined bits. I'm not so sure about the care of the average american woodworker who might like to launch small bits of wood across the shop from time to time.

Re: Kanefusa

Michael Todrin

It seems like there would be a nearly endless number of fixtures needed for different router bits and other cutting tools. Does the Hembrug come with flexible fixturing or is that something you have spent the time to devise?

Re: Kanefusa

Mark Hennebury

The Hembrug didn't have any when I got it, I acquired a few basic tool holders, but you are right, there are lots of tool holders that you can put on this type of machine. Some of the fixtures have air bearing spindles for doing end mills and spiral router bits. You have indexing heads for multiple flutes.

The Supersurfacers also have their own grinding machines with two grinding wheels, one is a "rough" grinding horizontal spindle and the second head is for a vertical honing cup wheel for doing the 1° micro-bevel. It's all quite fascinating, and a lot less stressful than getting into arguments with sharpening shop guys that have done sloppy work and ruined your tools.

The rough grinding wheel did a better job than any sharpening shop that I had straight blades sharpened at. I had an old CNC one for a while, that was a nice machine, just push the button and it did the rough grinding and finish hone automatically. Unfortunately I don't have any tool grinding equipment these days.

Re: Two questions

Mark Hennebury

Its hard to tell what the practical advantage is, many of the slight improvements in performance would go unnoticed by the purchaser of the finished product, and only be of interest to the maker. Some improvements may result in reduction in processing steps, which has a direct affect on the bottom line and others may have offer an increase in quality, which any or may not have any monetary value.

Some developments like replaceable knives, offer good benefits, like consistent quality, quick change-over, and repeatable accuracy of the cutting circle, and they do away with having to get tools re-sharpened.

Many different opinions in woodworking, no tolerance specifications, means everything is up to the market to decide. That goes for the end purchaser of the wood products and also the woodworkers who purchase the tools and machines.

Some people are okay with the finish left by a hollow chisel mortiser, and don't see any point to get a smoother surface inside a joint, where it won't be seen. Some do loose tenons and leave room in the mortise to slide the tenon side to side to line up, and don't think that the tenons need be tight on the end of the mortise, others do tight fitting joints that have to be accurately cut to fit.

You can't use a supersurfacer unless you have very clean working habits, any dirt or grit on the wood will degrade the blade edge. Yet I have seen people ( in North America) pick wood up off a concrete floor to put through a supersurfacer.

There is a difference in mindset required in working to higher tolerances, there is an education and a refining of habits, process and awareness required. Maybe in Japan that mindset and those habits are more part of the culture and training in the field of woodworking, and maybe more of a personal, individual thing here. Woodworking seems all over the map, with everyone having different opinions on how things should be done.

My own personal interest was to see how far you could go, how sharp, how clean and precise joints could be cut, and seeking out the best tools, machines and processes to do it efficiently. It wasn't market driven, it wasn't because my customers asked for it, it was just the way I saw it.

Everyone has there own point of view and it always makes for interesting discussions on the forums.

Two table saws, one is $1600 the other $60,000

Re: Kanefusa (long)

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

I am an "old" Engineer. Therefore I have seen the evolution of both the skill level of toolmakers and equipment design!

Don't believe that the same "quality" and accuracy could not be achieved with the 1930's ~ 1950's equipment as with the new "super accurate / precision machines!

However, in the 1950's years of experience and great skill were required from a toolmaker to get the required accuracy from the old machines. Often many more man hours were required to obtain this accuracy.

Much of the improvements in Equipment were driven by economics, this meant reducing the time to produce an acceptable product with far less skilled operators.

A CNC mill really only requires that the operator is skilled in programming, and basic knowledge in machining (IE: what tooling cutters to use, sequence of operations, speed of travel, proper mounting of item to be machined etc.).

The old mills required knowing how to take up machine

"backlash", proper feel for the manual feed rate, repeated measurements during the machining operations, cooling time required and a myriad of other items (many beyond my knowledge and /or skill level). Surface grinders required knowledge of wheel choice, proper balancing and dressing of the wheel etc.

However I have seen many gages produced with the "old" equipment that checked within .0001 or less! However these gages were not made with apprentice toolmakers - which they can do with the equipment of today.

Much of this is like the evolution of furniture building. A table and chair set of the 1800's with good quality could take many man hours of work by a very experienced woodworker and cost months of normal wages for the average worker. Today the same quality of the above can be done in a modern furniture factory in a fraction of the time (and cost).

An interesting story (to me :>) was that in the late 1960's our company purchased several "spiral cutting" machines from a company in Germany. These auto fed a ceramic resistor body about 1/8" diameter by .300" long into chucks that rotated, then a carbide or diamond high speed cutter wheel lowered on the rotating body and cut through an electrically resistive metal film that was deposited on the body in a vacuum chamber as it rotated causing a spiral pattern, this raised the resistance of the film to meet the 1 percent tolerance in a specified measurement of resistance in ohms.

To make a long story short, shortly after putting these machines in operation wear items began requiring replacement, normally a quick job. However we found EVERY machine was built differently! Shafts to bushing fits were very tight (within .0002") however the shafts diameter varied by .002" or more between machines.

Nothing on the machines were standard, things like base mounting holes etc. varied widely. Apparently each machine was built by an individual with basic instructions. We kept a toolmaker in our shop busy making replacement parts!

Very true...

John in New Mexico

I have seen the same myself at my last job where I had a couple really good machinists working with me - the second of which is probably the most skilled I've ever known personally. Those guys could make parts that inexperienced people didn't believe were not CNC made, and they made them on machines that those same neophytes would say were only good as boat anchors.

Before you had CNC machines that supposedly could do everything better than a lifetime of skill, people didn't doubt their eyes. You saw an amazing part and you knew someone had made it. Now the default assumption is that a computer made it. And yet I've seen a lot of ill conceived and poorly modeled projects go into the scrap pile because that kid with a little learning, a lot of arrogance, and no experience figured his computer was better than trusting the judgement of a guy who had been running machines for 30 years.

The material point you make is 100% correct - the fancy machines save time, they do not replace skill. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about modern CNC equipment or just the traditional high accuracy tool room machines of the type that has been around since WWII or before.