Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution *LINK*

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

Ray Newman

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting about the ship's design with 24" oif solid oak sides.

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

Keith L Newton

Now THAT was pretty cool to learn. I'm wondering why though, the photo showing the sample of timbers for hull, frames, and interior planking timbers were cut on a circular mill, instead of the Woodmizer mentioned in the text.

Now I could get pretty excited about getting some 4' Diameter W Oak.

Interesting and thanks

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I sent the link to my Navy son in law.

I am skeptical of a while oak growing to 40" in 100 years.

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

William Duffield

The frames, ribs and knees were originally live oak, but I understand they were replaced with plywood in a previous restoration. There is still a source for live oak timbers, so I've wondered why they didn't use authentic historical materials for that work.

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

Tom Dunlap

Mystic Seaport buys up Live Oak stores after hurricanes. They were able to get semi loads of ship shaped knees after Katrina.

I wonder if this is where wood is sourced for the USS Constellation in Baltimore's Inner Harbor.

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

Barry Irby

I have lost many details to the dim recesses of my memory but early on in the history of the country they realized they would need ribs for ships. They established a Live Oak forest in South Carolina to be tended by forester/ship wrights who would bend the trees to the shapes needed. In the hundred years or so it took to grow the trees Iron ships took over and now the Live Oak forest is a National Park. Wonder if any of the trees are still there?

Naval stores *LINK*

Tom Dunlap

The history that I've read about Naval Stores, including set-aside trees has never mentioned anything about bending or shaping trees. All of the reading I've done, and visits to Mystic Seaport-like museums tells the story of naturally formed tree shapes. My guess is that naturally formed shapes would be more stable.

After Katrina Mystic Seaport spent time collecting chunks of uprooted Live Oaks from the Gulf Coast. The shipwrights cruised the trees and culled out large chunks that were rough cut and loaded onto flatbeds for transport.

I've never read about a National Park that is a Naval Stores area. There may be acreage, like this military base, that has Federal protection status left over from past ages.

This book is an excellent read about building a wooden boat.


From Tree to Sea

Check out Naval Live Oaks Reservation

Barry Irby

Wikipedia describes what I was talking about. I was wrong on the details bot generally correct. It's the thought that counts.

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

William Duffield

On another thread a while back, I posted a link to this video of a source for live oak timbers, Cross Sawmill in Georgia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH37Dep0cvU&t=25s

Re: Naval stores

William Duffield

naturally formed shapes would be more stable

How would the tree, or especially the wood inside the tree, added many years after the original insult, know whether the bend was due to being pushed over in a hurricane, having a nearby tree fall on it, or being intentionally bent by clamps, cables, etc.?

Reaction wood

Tom Dunlap

Great question.

I've only read about how trees were chosen for use in ship building. Add that to over 45 years of working on trees leads me to wonder how stable a branch/trunk might be if it were bent with a force/load.

All things equal I wonder how long it would take for a branch union in one aspect would attain sufficient strength to equal a natural aspect v. one that is bent.

The skill to scout out the differences sure could be learned by someone from a shipyard. There are likely people who still have that skill too.

I had a client who wanted some low branches bent down to grow into a screen. The branches were growing out from the trunk at an angle about 20* above horizontal. It first I suggested using webbing and stakes to hold the limbs down, to about 20* below horizontal, until they were bent enough. The client didn't want to have stakes to mow around. Back to brainstorming. In the end I used some gallon jugs of water hung like Christmas decorations to bend the branches. The branches weren't large diameter so it was easy to weigh them down. I think they were weighed down for a couple of years. It was fun to be paid to be a sculpture. I wish I remember where they were growing. That was 25 years ago so the trees would be quite a bit larger now.

Re: Check out Naval Live Oaks Reservation

Tom Henderson, Gulf Breeze Fl

The Naval Live Oak Reservation, now part of the Gulf Islands National Seashore, was established in 1828 by President John Quincy Adams in order to provide a source for live oak timbers for the Navy.

It is very close to my house and certainly worth a visit if you visit the area.

Re: Oak source for rebuilding USS Constitution

Keith L Newton

Dang William, While I like that mill, and know the properties of Live Oak are great, I'm not so sure I would be buying the stuff he will be spending $20,000 with so much short grain. Even though they drove the big forklift up on some to see if it would break while green, I would bet that some of it might self-destruct during the drying process if it isn't done right.

One thing you can count on in grown crooks, especially tight curves, is that the inside of the curve will have a lot of grain deviation from parallel to the pith, due mainly to the way cells divide. They keep getting more crowded down their length as the circumference of the circle getting smaller or shorter as the diameter of the tree gets larger. I've got some grown crooks stashed around in my shop and under the shed. One thing that I found surprising even when steam bent, is that during drying, rather than springback it has a tendency to bend inward if steamed properly with end compression. It was hard to get my head around the geometry causing this, but what I found is the length doesn't change down the outside and inside edges, but as the width decreases, this will force it to bend more.

Some time ago I was bending some 2" thick walnut to about a 5" R, so after they were steamed, I measured the chord length from end to end, and wrote it on the side of each so I could help understand or predict future springback, then did a major jaw drop when they were dry, all had actually contracted instead. On my 3" thick W Oak with natural edge, I laid a framing square on the side then traced the outline to compare in the future.

Here in my locality freezing rain loads up and bends many trees down. I have a Post Oak on my woodlot that was bent over in an ice storm many years ago. The bend starts about 10' up, then out and down about 25º before tuning straight up. Its about 20" D, and I keep thinking about how to use it. Since it forms a giant N I'm thinking I'll just chainsaw out some slabs that will make the seat of conversation bench where people sitting on one leg will be facing others on the far side and some in between. I may have waited too long though due to a substantial loss of strength during my recent illness.

Horizontal branches lift up their ends as they dry

1 Keith Newton

About 15 years ago I got commissioned to cut a whole tree up, strip the bark, then reassemble it in a nice restaurant. It was a 24” diameter Post Oak with lots of low horizontal branches. I started by tying onto the branches then using my sailboat tackle lifting the weight off so I could take a long diagonal scarf joint near the trunk without binding my saw.

The main purpose for the tree was to hide a 6”x6” steel post supporting the roof so I had to rip in top to bottom, then cut out a large V, to reassemble the halves around. The room had about 12’ ceiling with black lift-out tiles. When I hung the branches back on, the long scarfs acted as a shelf to bolt and support the branches on that end, then about half way out, I drilled them tapped the wood so I could screw a long all-thread into the branch then I punched a hole through the ceiling tiles and tied into the bar-joist above, with some of their outer ends rising on up and cut level with the ceiling.

I expected the ends to droop from their own weight, so I ran 2x4 blocking across above the tiles and screwed down into the outer ends. HOWEVER, as the wood dried, the ends started lifting the tiles up so ever few months or so I had to go back over and cut off a few inches. Some probably rose up 8-12” when dry.

picture?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

That description took a bit of study to get my head wrapped around the details. Manipulating something of that weight during construction must have been challenging. Was the shrinkage uniform such that the joints remained aligned?

A picture of the result would be interesting to see.