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Why I like Waterlox

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Re: Why I like Waterlox

#26

Gas is the best...

John in New Mexico

Along with glass or metal containers that don't breath like most plastic does - something I only kinda understand thanks to Bill T's efforts here over the years.

The start up cost of a bottle and regulator puts most people off right of the bat, along with the general unfamiliarity of having and transporting bottles around. In the office at my last observatory we were so used to nitrogen bottles everywhere that the electronics tech even used one in place of compressed air for dusting things off - it was simply easier than getting compressed air from the site system into his office.

The only advice I would offer to anyone desiring to try this (beyond go for it) is to get a proper bottle rack to secure the bottle in your shop. They are cheap insurance, just like a good ABC fire extinguisher, and in my mind should be considered part of the start up cost, just like the regulator.

Trueoil does cure in the bottle just like Waterlox, they behave just about the same in terms of drying time and short shelf life. Its sold in tiny bottles more because the projects it is marketed for are small. The stuff won't last until there's another gunstock to refinish if the customer doesn't know to take the appropriate measures like gassing the oil as you did. So you're right on your theory as to the size, but Waterlox doesn't sell small quantities because their target market uses the stuff more quickly.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#27

Re: Using gas to preserve finishes

TomD

Since I TIG weld, I have been using argon for this, and recommended it here repeatedly. Didn't realize the mix of gasses in Bloxygen. Lee Valley was selling their own product for a while. I don't think they still do.

The key to efficient use is to figure out a way to to dispense your product without dumping the bloxygen. If you do that, one can of Bloxygen will last years. I put whatever gas into bottles, and top off with a syringe. Then when I need a little I invert and make like Marcus Welby and pull out the liquid, this way the blivet of gas is preserved and the gas is never consumed. There are also ways of dispensing from inverted bottles when you are using larger quantities, but they vary by spray system, etc...

It really starts to pay off with artists oil paints and such, and brushes. Huge time saver.

I guess Bloxygen is expensive because it was used with wine. But it is readily available, and if you find a good price it will give you a start, and then you can figure whether fresh finish is worth it to you. The finish is loosing it's characteristics a long time before it is solid in the can.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#28

How to stretch your Bloxogen

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

When a liquid vaporizes the volume increases about 20 fold. Hence a can of liquid that vaporizes in use will make vastly more "gas" at atmospheric pressure than a can of pressurized gas such as Bloxogen.

Dust-Off is a liquid in the can. And it is very heavy and will sink to the surface of a can of varnish. Problem is it is readily soluble in finish and if it is used alone to displace the air in a can head space a vacuum will be created when the stuff dissolves in the finish. The can will collapse.

Solution: Displace all the air with a robust burst of cheap readily available Dust-Off. Then displace some of the Dust-Off vapor with a quick squirt of Bloxogen.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#29

correction

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

A typical liquid will expand more than 100X when it vaporizes. A can full of liquified Dust-Off makes a lot of vapor for displacing air from a paint can.

(I should never try to answer technical questions before waking up.)

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#30

oops STOP Loss bags...

David Weaver

.I used the wrong term for the bags that I have and use for often shelved finishes - stop loss bags.

I just checked my house made varnish (which is literally only varnish, nothing in it at all, not even dryers). Shelf life in a container is supposedly only a couple to 6 months before it gels.

The entirety is soft with no curing in it, and the only thing I've done with it is squeeze some out of the bag onto a pad when I use it. It's convenient. If I ever manage to empty the bag the violin varnish is in, I'll refill it with varnish again instead of discarding it (can't think of a good reason to toss the bag if there's almost nothing in it other than the same finish that would be going in).

Shorter periods of time and heavier use (in gallons instead of quarts), or the desire to drip a brush in the actual can of finish, I guess I could see cans and bloxygen, but otherwise, I don't really get it.

The lesson in staining recently shows me that I need to keep my mixed stain in it, too (artist pigment and base stain or just clear stain base). Wish I'd have done that - $3 of bag would've saved about $20 worth of mix that I really liked, without having to faff with cleaning out the groove on the can lid to make sure it was truly airtight.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#31

Re: Why I like Waterlox

Michael Todrin

I am curious what you use for a spray setup for Waterlox? I have only every brushed it.

Michael

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#32

Re: Why I like Waterlox

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Conventional suction feed DeVelbiss gun that I use for lacquer, conversion varnish, etc. #30 cap about 40 psi. Any varnish sprays easily. Some require a modest amount of thinning.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#33

Re: Why I like Waterlox

Michael Todrin

Thanks Bill, I will try spraying it on my next project. I use a 1.2 tip for water based. What tip size do you use for waterlox?

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#34

Re: Why I like Waterlox

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have no idea what "tip" means. For my gun it is all about "cap" which is the traditional lacquer Tip #30.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#35

CA glue, too

John K Jordan

>>>Along with glass or metal containers that don't breath like most plastic does - ...

CA glue is another product that suffers from being bottled in "most" plastics. In that case, it's moisture that goes through the plastic to shorten the life of the CA.

Mercury Adhesives wrote about the bottles they developed that was mostly impermeable to moisture. Their cap helps too. Their CA is expensive but it's the best I've used. They are so sure of if they have an unconditional replacement guarantee if a bottle ever sets up.

https://www.mercuryadhesives.com/

I use a different method that preserves bottles of CA regardless of the plastic of the bottles. I've written about this before but here is is again: store CA in a sealed container with desiccant to absorb any moisture. I use an indicator desiccant that turns from blue to pink when it needs to be recharged. I have some bottles that are over 6 years old and are still fine.


These days I use a larger container which makes it easier to find and replace a specific bottle.

Funny thing: I came up with this idea many years before I started using it myself. I told a friend who started using it immediately but I forgot about it. Duh! Maybe 8-10 years later he told me how he'd been keeping CA in a glass jar with desiccant ever since and how well it worked.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013L31PQ0

JKJ

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#36

Re: CA glue, too

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have kept cyanoacrylate glue in a desiccator for decades along with my shellac flakes and Gorilla glue.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#37

Re: Why I like Waterlox

Michael Todrin

I am not an expert Bill, but I believe cap size controls the shape of the fan and tip size varies based on the viscosity of the fluid being sprayed.

Here is a screenshot from the specs on one of the many Devilbiss guns:


Re: Why I like Waterlox

#38

Re: Why I like Waterlox

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

i have no idea. Bottom line..whatever sprays lacquer will spray oil paint and varnish.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#39

I am equally cheap..but...

David Weaver

.I bought about $75 of pigments when experimenting with stains. It cost me as much to make varnish as waterlox would cost - it's more of a principles thing.

If I were making the same thing as you are, I would seal it with dewax shellac and spray with crosslink target (I have no ability to spray inside with solvents - divorce would follow - otherwise I would spray a whole lot more nitro lacquer).

In terms of the principles, i couldn't see what's making up the solids, so I thought $35 was pretty presumptuous for petroleum products and a drier. If 20% of the product or more is some kind of modified oils not disclosed because they're not hazardous, that makes some sense.

But $35 for a quart of finish is meaningless. If it's little different than a $15 can of finish, then it's principle.

The stop loss bags are the same - it's not a matter of dollars, it's a matter of effort. When my stain mix dried, I had set it aside for something in the future yet to be determined. It worked wonderfully, worked on a planed or scraped surface and looked the same on a sanded surface (literally - same darkness, same absorption, because the solids are so high and because of the size of the pigment).

The fact that the half can dried isn't a big deal. I'll spend $40 and make another quart of it. It's a paint to get the stuff, and if I had the foresight to put it in a bag, I wouldn't have to go to the trouble. I didn't.

As far as the comments about guitars and handles, I think you're in a contest, and I don't know who it's with. I literally made a bed for a 10 year old last year. It didn't have to be as nice, so it allowed experimenting. My daughter wanted it to be white, so I used cheap wood and treated it like bodywork.

I wouldn't think of putting waterlox on a guitar for a second, nor would I put it on my tools. If they have a gloss version, I wouldn't be averse to putting it on furniture. It solves a problem I don't have, though. WB finish over shellac has worked very well as long as it's got crosslinker in it to get reasonably hard. Even then, I prefer just the shellac.

I quite enjoyed cooking the varnish. I look forward to figuring out what amount of dryer will make it dry hard and clear like a nitro lacquer. It smells wonderful when you apply it. We have different objectives. You're in a contest of something that I'm not in. I'm looking to do things that are pleasing on a sensory level. Over lunch, I cut 5 plane irons and a paring chisel out of bar stock. I really liked it. There's a version of a guy in both cases who has told me it's a waste of time to do that (actually, you've implied that), and I've run into "the guy" who says you can't harden and temper steel well in a forge and it won't be any good unless you send it off. I can have five irons ready for tempering with about $1 of gas before that fellow can box his irons, get them to the mail and back and then get them out of the box later and check them. The cost doesn't matter that much - it'll feel like an obligation to the person doing all of that logistical stuff, though, and it'll be pleasant for me the whole time.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#40

Waterlox Marine

Steve D, CT

is very glossy.

I made a kayak stand and the coats built to a high gloss on douglas fir. It did not hold up in the weather however.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#41

I used it once too...

John in New Mexico

Same observations on both counts. It acts much more like the polyurethane you get at the hardware store, though I don't doubt it is a different animal chemically speaking. Nice color though, kinda amber on lighter woods.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#42

I used it too

Mark Mandell - Gone Round in New Jersey

One big advantage to Waterlox was that it was?is a tung oil finish. Tug oil finish films don't go dark over time like flax (a/k/a linseed) oil. But I've run across some unofficial information that they've started adding some flax oil for cost. Their msds doesn't have to list flax/linseed because linseed oil is not only not hazardous, but is actually edible.

Re: Why I like Waterlox

#43

getting really clean linseed oil..

David Weaver

...not the point of your post, but when I cooked varnish, I ordered the flaxseed/linseed oil from a food supply place based on a suggested list.

The turpentine came from some health food supplier (that one I couldn't quite figure out, but it does appear that some people will bathe in it and some other folks took it like an elixir).

The US isn't the place to buy good quality turps, though - super expensive. Cost half as much with international shipping to get some from portugal (that has a nice crisp scent).

I think linseed oil might be what makes (old) woodworking planes brown - either that or tallow.

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