WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Posts

Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#1

Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Rail discussion will occur in later posts

Background: The Trail Board of Directors hired an engineering firm that specializes in Rail to Trails Projects to design and engineer the Trail bridges. This contract occurred before I came on board. The head of this firm is a former RR engineer. Bridge design was cast in stone and I could not make any changes unilaterally. Any design change from the first bridge built by this firm had to be agreed upon by this engineer.

Code: The bridges are built to residential code- 50 pounds of structural strength per foot between posts. 4' post spacing, able to resist 200 pounds of force at top of post.



Figure 1 shows a force analysis of a 200 pound load applied to the top of the post. This force is multiplied by the lever arm from post top to the through bolt,F1, and in turn to the screws holding the curb to the deck/ties, F2.

To withstand the code load the post must not snap, the through bolt must not break and the screws that hold the angle bracket must not pull out. Calculations showed that the post would meet code and the weak link would be the post with two 1" holes bored through it.



Picture 1` shows the post being tested to see what failed. At 840 pounds of force the screws pulled out of the tie. The way screw threads are designed all the threaded section of the screw is in the tie and there are no threads in the curb. I did not appreciate this fact until we tested. It appeared that the creosote treatment of the tie compromised thread withdrawal strength.

Picture 2 shows a comparison of the original and improved post hardware.



Considering the original design: The 1" lag screw has no effect on post strength other than to remove 1" of post width. It's only useful role is to hold the post vertical until the rails go on. It is extremely difficult to install this screws as it takes a 3/4" driver (think very heavy) with the harnessed worker dangling over the bridge edge. The 1" through bolt has a yield strength of 76,000 pounds. Because the distance ratio of through bolt hole to vertical screw hole is 1:1, force F1 equals force F2.


I put the challenge of redesigning this post to my neighbor, a mechanical engineer. The result is shown in Figure 2. The 1" lag and the vertical lag are replaced by "Engineered Screw", Spax in this case. We swung a sweet deal with Spax to get screws for 1/3 retail price. We found that they did not require a pilot hole, a great time saver. We also found that the creosote behaves as a hot melt adhesive. After driving the screw in it is near impossible to withdraw it after the frictional heat dissipates.

The 1" bolt is replaced by a 1/2" bolt. The vertical screws are staggered and the spacing reduces the load F2 by 1/4. Instead of a generator and 4 corded drills and drivers to install a post only one 1/2' battery driver and one 1/2" drill is needed. We got post installation down to a 3 minute operation and reduced the cost of post hardware about $10. Times 144 posts for this bridge the savings were substantial.

(why some pictures are rotated upon posting remains a mystery. )

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#2

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Ralph Lipeles

When doing railing loads I was told that the design should be for a 250 pound person falling at 3g's.That's a 750 pound load.

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#3

3 Gs ?!?!?!?!

Henry (Raleigh NC)

3 Gs?

Is the design overkill deliberate there? 3 Gs seems pretty (highly) unlikely outside of high speed travel.

Henry

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#4

The facts

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

People don't fall on rails. They push on them.

I have the documents for what residential code is, what trail codes are, what the OSHA code is, what the highway pedestrian rail codes are. I never heard of what you are referring to and in any case it does not apply to this rail. And none of this matters because I have to build as the stamped engineering drawing specifies for it is the engineering firm's responsibility to design, and mine to build to design. And all is approved by a building permit. The bureaucracy actually makes my life simple.

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#5

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Steve Elliott

Thanks for posting this, Bill. I’ve found it much more interesting than I would have expected.

The original design made me think, “I’m glad I don’t build decks.” It was hard to understand the reason for the hardware and it looked like a pain to build. The drawings and force analyses helped me see what was needed and what wasn’t.

I especially liked the picture of testing the original design. Analysis is great but I’m never sure I haven’t missed something until I test it out.

The improvement in fasteners has been amazing over the course of my career. Back in school (late 70s) we used traditional wood screws that required more piloting, stripped out easily and didn’t hold as well as many of the engineered screws available these days. Some things do get better.

Your bridge projects are like my work was, with levels of planning and approval required and some decisions made by people with little hands-on building experience. You’ve done a great job coming up with a more effective design.

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#6

Re: 3 Gs ?!?!?!?!

John McGaw

Maybe the biggest baddest NFL tackle accelerating from one edge to the other and shouldering the post? Of course one can always find a reason for any design to fail with enough effort.

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#7

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Keith L Newton

I still think it is over engineered. If you ran the post on down to the bottom of the 8x8s rather than sitting on top, then bolted on beside it with 3 bolts or lags, you could get a better spread, and have the load in shear instead of crushing a washer, and no need for that other stuff.

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#8

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Wiley Horne

Interesting argument. But didn’t Bill already have a problem with people hanging over the edge of the bridge, 60 feet above ground/water, trying to drive those long lags in?

If I understand Keith’s suggestion (and I may not), wouldn’t they have to rapelle, or hang a big bucket over the side, to get an angle on driving those 3 super-long lags?

Wiley

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

#9

Re: Wringing Bridge Cost- post design

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Indeed it is vastly over engineered. While I have been able to negotiate substantial cost reductions, many remain. However, stay tuned for a discussion of ties and rails before judging whether there is a better way. Keep in mind, labor is 80% of the cost of the bridge. We have post installation down to 3 minutes. Wait till I talk about rails.....

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.