new method - containing MDF dust in my shop

Great tip, Howard

Ellis Walentine

MDF is about the dustiest stuff you'll ever cut in your shop. Your method seems to work great.

Thanks for the tip. If you ever would like to change your profile name again, I can delete your current profile and you can set yourself up as Howard in Toronto, or whatever.

Cheers,

Ellis

Re: Great tip, Howard

Howard Rosenberg

Thanks Ellis - this system did work really well.

And I think I'll accept your help earlier this week and just leave it as Howard Rosenberg.

Thanks for everything, Ellis.

Re: new method - containing MDF dust in my shop

Barry Irby

Another minor improvement might be to introduce some negative air flow. Use your dust collector or a shop vac to suck air out of your containment area and exhaust it outdoors. This will help stop fines from wandering out and settling in the shop.

My central DC system exhausts outdoors nd it helps.

Re: new method - containing MDF dust in my shop

Howard Rosenberg

Barry, that sounds like a great idea.

If you could explain how I do that, I'd appreciate it.

I'm thinking just turn on the shopvac while I'm routing?

Do I stand up the hose by itself? With an attachment?

Is just leaving it on the floor ok?

And then use it to vacuum the bench and floor?

Thanks.

My idea...

Barry Irby

Was to suck "dusty" air out of your containment area and exhaust it outside your shop, outdoors, causing fresh cleaner (hopefully) air to flow back in.

My DC is in a closet on the exterior of my shop and uses a cheap bag filter. I don't care what micron the bag has, anything the system sucks up is gone, outdoors. I made a downdraft table for sanding. I just stick the DC hose into the side and turn it on. Sanding dust is suck down through the holes in the table and outdoors. I use the same idea when spraying lacquer.

So, what I was suggesting for you was to use the shop vac maybe with two hoses on it. Use the inlet hose to create negative pressure inside you tent and perhaps to collect the dust directly and then stick the exhaust hose out the window or through a hole in the wall.

OTOH, this exhaust idea maybe too difficult. So, you could rely on the shop vac filter. Even without a HEPA filter, the exhaust air would be cleaner than whatever it sucked up. Have your inlet hose inside the tent and the vac or exhaust hose out side the tent.

We can have endless discussion about air quality and whether this filter is better than that filter. And Particle size. Particles you can see are relatively harmless. The ones that fall out of the air immediately are very little health risk. Generally, the dangerous ones are the ones that are nearly invisible and float in the air long enough for you to inhale them. Another topic is about air movement. The tiny particles will settle out of still air sooner than moving air. An example would be that an ambient air cleaner might be a negative thing if it keeps air moving and particles suspended long enough to inhale them.

Another idea might be to cut a hole in one of your curtains and install a box fan in the hole with a filter over it to suck air out of your booth. Very low air flow might not collapse the booth and still suck in fresh air. You need magnets, lots of magnets, and tape.

Re: new method - containing MDF dust in my shop

John K Jordan

Nice job, Howard Rosenberg. (:))

I did a nearly identical thing last week. My peacock egg incubators are in a corner of the shop and in my case the noise from the fans was interfering with a video I'm producing. I put up hooks and stretched heavy blankets floor-to-ceiling to help reduce the sound.

For negative pressure in that space a shop vac vented outside will be better than nothing. If you have a large cyclone with good separation you could run a piece of flex duct and put a pickup nozzle like the Big Gulp" adjacent to where you are working. The fine dust might go through a bag-type DCs unless it is vented outside, at least temporarily. If the area has a window a fan in the window blowing outwards can do wonders. A friend uses a big fan mounted in the wall behind his lathe to blow all the dust and even chips outside. With no window you could hook up a smaller fan such as a squirrel cage and run a flex suitable (6"?) flex duct across the shop and out the door or a window.

A ceiling or wall mounted air cleaner such as the Jet can help a lot, not in containment but for removal of what escapes.

I like your PPE. I have two of those 3M full face respirators and keep the P100 dust filters on one and cartridge filters for volatilies for when I need to spray around the farm. I also have Tyvec suits with hoods. As a joke I threatened to wear this outfit into the dr's office in the middle of the pandemic and the receptionist laughed and said "Do it!" but I think it would have caused a panic.

Hey, if you every get into the situation the full face respirator is great for working around smoke. It won't keep you from breathing some but it will keep it out of your eyes! An unwise gentleman down the hill accidentally set the woods on fire and I used one of mine while cutting a fire break with my tractor.

Since you are obviously rightly concerned about the health hazards of find dust, if not aware you might be interested in an air quality particulate counter. It uses a laser and monitors the fine particles in the air which can help what changes are the most effective. I use this Dylos:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AWEG0Y

JKJ

For about 30 years...

David Weaver

My dad did raw material prep in wood and my mother painted it. Most of the cutting was curve cutting with a 12" bandsaw and a fine tooth blade, but also gobs of sanding.

The entire time, dad worked in the basement wearing a mask and with no dust collection (collection is dust settling on the ground, sweeping into a box and carrying it out). His setup was much like yours except clear plastic with an overlap at each seam of about a foot. I have to admit that I don't ever remember seeing dust outside of it. Long story short, his setup was much like what you've shown, and it worked a treat - only condition being that it was intolerable if not wearing a mask that sealed well, but he had that.

The hours that he spent in there would be in the four figure range - he's now in his 70s still with no sensitivity to pine (most of the wood was pine) and no dust or respiratory issues.

Thanks for posting - I have a metal grinding area in my shop and have been vacuuming the bulk and leaf blowing (literally) the rest of the shop from time to time to get the fine layer that settles everywhere out - only just now realizing because of your post that I could do the same thing.

Re: Just say no!

TomD

My approach is "just say no to MDF". Though.... It does make nice spinning wheels. Ok, good spinning wheels...

Good system Howard, and it would be useful for other things.

Works for me.

Re: new method - containing MDF dust in my shop

Howard Rosenberg

Thanks John.

I'll think about using Barry's shopvac idea.

But I don't exhaust outdoors and my assembly area is at the back while the TS, router table, BS and DP are almost right at the door.

And yes, that mask is great. I think I need to buy Lee Valley's stick-on bi-focal films to stick on the face - if it's within 2 feet, I can't see a thing!

Re: For about 30 years...

Howard Rosenberg

That's a great story about your dad and his setup, David.

Thank heavens he's in good health after all those years.

And yes, the "end pieces" overlap the "side pieces" about a foot and a half too. It wasn't deliberate - I'm at the mercy of gear and shelves along the walls.

If you use any parts of this idea for your metalworking, let us know how it works out.

There is but one catch for metalworking..

David Weaver

...i'm convinced that metal dust will rust in your eyes based on eye fatigue the next day. That may be the only thing stopping use of this, but I could create a poor man's negative pressure situation and force a low volume of air outside of the shop constantly to remove that fine dust that I think is rusting in my eyes.

My dad's scenario (the fine dust in the shop was like snow on the ground after that many years - at least in areas where it wasn't swept) shows just how well your setup can work with a mask, though. My last radio controlled airplane wing sat against the wall three feet from the plastic for about 20 years now and last year when I noticed it and said "I think it's time to throw that away!", it had basement dust on it, and not sawdust (basement dust being the kind of stuff you'd find on canned goods after they're on the shelf for years - tan/brown ick.).

Suggestions like yours are very practical for people who don't want to spend $4000 every time they switch something up. I can almost guarantee there are a LOT of dormant dust collection systems in the US, put in place out of a perceived bulk of future use garnered by the woodworking media (it's good at getting us to buy stuff). While my dad sawed and sanded a whole lot more wood than I would ever see, he was doing it at the whim of my mother and by no means an ethusiast.

Friends Don't Let Friends do MDF

Re: Friends Don't Let Friends do MDF

TomD

Even at the highest point of fear over COVID you never saw people dressed like the above (outside hospitals and labs). Interesting that so much MDF gets sold. And one does wonder what it is used for, and who would have it in their house. One odd use is that people seem to prefer it for CNC machines that are made of wood. and other jigs. I pay extra for plywood, but many people say they prefer MDF.

exterior trim...

David Weaver

..an acquaintance mentioned something to me (someone I see from time to time - him, not me) about kreg jigs and through the ensuing discussion, he mentioned needing to replace exterior trim on a relatively new Ryan home (I think that was the builder). I asked him how that could be possible and he mentioned that the trim on the outside of his house was MDF (that was presumably sealed by something more persistent than just paint).

Everyone can guess what's happened to it - it's swelled and bubbled unevenly.

It's everywhere.

All trim in the inlaw's house in a "plus quality" builder's neighborhood is MDF. I mentioned to them when they moved in (in summer) that it would probably shrink and show cracks more than wood would have, but I'd have been surprised to see crown moulding made of wood in a house of that price range (would be about $350K in central PA now). I guess they assured him it wouldn't shrink, and he'd upgraded the sills and window trim to "stain grade", which was actually fingerjoint white wood (he had it painted - but didn't want painted MDF). Folks getting stained interior (get that or they can opt for an upgrade to get wood without fingerjoint).

Anything you've ever thought about wood or wood trim in a house, you can just throw it out and guess two levels down (or one solid level below what you would think is the first level you wouldn't want in the first place).

oh, the crown moulding..

David Weaver

..MDF painted white, with a long run of about 25 feet - winter came and the MDF did shrink and the paint cracked and gaps appeared at the corners.

Not sure most people would ever look up to see it.

Re: Friends Don't Let Friends do MDF

Howard Rosenberg

Interesting observation re my gear to keep MDF's dust out of my nose, eyes, throat and off my clothes, Tom.

It's super fine, super-light and needs big vigilance to keep under control.

As for its attractiveness, it's -

- relatively cheap

- completely flat

- uniformly sized

- consistently-sized

- doesn't telegraph through veneers

- machines great

- takes finishes well

I'll live with its need to -

- pre-drill on any surface (face or edge)

- manage dust

Those pluses vs those minuses let me create projects that would be waaaaay too expensive in solid wood -

- 8' long bookcase shelves

they're really torsion boxes in housed joints - grooves and dadoes

they're FILLED with books

they exhibit zero sag after 17 years of use

- 7' tall bookcase/grandfather clock

frame-and-panel gables and door

in use by my son for 21 years

Milk paint was very liberating - and cheap - but veneer opens up UNIVERSES of possibilities!

Re: Friends Don't Let Friends do MDF

Howard Rosenberg

that's really funny!