Complementary curve routing video *LINK*

Re: Complementary curve routing video B *LINK*

Mark Hennebury

This is a link to the overhead view of the routing video.


Routing video B

Re: Complementary curve routing video B

Barry Irby

Watched both. Sort of skipped through the overhead one.

Some suggestions in no particular order....

Learn to look at the camera as if it were your friend or the person your are teaching to do this. Or learn to completely ignore it.

Perhaps make a project that shows something interesting or nice a person could do with this. Joining two pieces of Masonite is not very exciting. Perhaps a cutting board.

Most of us don't have a metal lathe or the skill to make a bushing. I have done this with the template guides. Interesting to know what to look for and how to do it.

I bought an 1 1/4" guide and had a 1/2" one. Used a 3/8" bit. Made a template for cutting four sizes of dovetail keys. Worked well. I did not have the confidence to hand cut the slots and keys. I have a Whiteside set that includes a guide, a bushing and a bit, but the bit is an 1/8". I was concerned the bit would whip and mess up the spacing.

Maybe better microphone for better for sound.

Cut out some of the clutter and small missteps. Shorten the length.

I know nothing about editing a video, but have written a book and news letter and several articles. My technique was to write it and then cut out 50%.

Re: Complementary curve routing video B

Mark Hennebury

Many thanks Barry, that's what i am looking for. I didn't put any attention to setup for the video and didn't do any editing, which is fairly obvious, I just wanted to try one out and then get a list of things that need to be fixed or adjusted. I will work on all the details that you have listed and a few more that i have seen myself. Hopefully over the next few videos i will make some adjustments and improvements and be able to make interesting, informative and concise video demonstrations. Thanks for taking the time and for your evaluation.

Mark.

Re: Complementary curve routing video

al morgan

You need a close up shot with explanation of the bushing stuff. Better yet diagrams with pop up arrows as you speak. And I don't have a lathe to cut the bushing down to exact size....503 in? Not gonna happen.

I will remake the video *LINK*

Mark Hennebury

This was just a test one. I hope to start making woodwork videos and put this one out as there was a discussion on a forum about this kind of template routing. So I wanted to just put it out and get some feedback on all that was wrong with it. I already know a lot of what was wrong / missing, but I still learned a lot from the responses. It was also made clear to me things that I took for granted. Having done woodwork for 50 years there is a lot that of information that is so normal to me that it is not even a conscious thought, and it is only when i hear back from people, that I realize that it is not always common knowledge, and i need to carefully review the information and details, so that it is clearly explained.

So thank you for taking the time to watch and answer, the answers will help me make better videos.

I will review all that I have heard and learnt and do a much better quality video with all the diagrams and close-ups and links to where you can buy the tools required.

In the meantime you can purchase the router bit sets in many places.

Thanks for your reply.


Router bit sets

Mark - who is your audience?

David Weaver

If you're looking to communicate mostly with people who will be doing what you're showing, it's drastically different than if you're looking to grow a youtube channel and potentially provide instruction material to people who may think they want to woodwork, but really don't.

I think the latter is where most folks are making money on youtube these days - the former is far more satisfying to present to.

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

Mark Hennebury

Hi David,

My audience will be small.

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

David Weaver

I'm glad to hear that (though if you're going for wide appeal and less substance, I'm sure that's fine).

I think with as much as you've done and built, the vanilla-lite version probably wouldn't be very stimulating for you to make.

vanilla-lite being so summary that important information is skipped, but it draws viewers in the 90% cohort who just want to watch and imagine they could do something.

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

Mark Hennebury

Woodworking is easy.

Wood is easy to understand.

Cutting tools are easy to understand.

People are difficult and complicated.

Getting people to see what they are looking at is difficult.

People interpret sensory input through their own personal filters, and you never know what it is that they actually see. So imparting knowledge is complicated.

Plus people have different values, some are good with "good enough" to others life is about the pursuit of absolute..

40 years ago a woodworker walked in to my shop and remarked on the double mortise and tenons that I was cutting, he said that they were unnecessary. He was right, but I still don't understand why he mentioned it...was that necessary?

I guess i will never understand the concept of necessary.

If you ask a woodworker how to do something, they will show you.

If you ask them why they do it that way, and they answer " that's the way that I was taught; did they really learn anything?

I prefer to answer questions with riddles.

I would like to find an audience that need to understand, are driven by the desire to see what's around the next corner, and are willing to bypass their filters and see things as they are.

I want people that don't trust a word I say, people who will question and test everything, Including how they see things.

What I want from a class/demonstration/video

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

You did not ask, and maybe don't care. One can be driven to teach what they want to teach (why else are there so many useless degrees offered at colleges), or they can teach what students want or need to learn.

In the course of learning to make stuff I have sought out knowledge. Along the way I have become picky about where I seek it. I need to know something about how the person teaching learned and practices what they are teaching. If their day job is making videos I'm not interested in what they have to offer. For this reason I don't watch the vast majority of videos out there.

When I wanted to learn Line and Berry decoration I went to Steve Latta. Anyone making and selling this product has developed an efficient and reliable way to do it. And that is what I am looking for, reliable and efficient. One finds reliable and efficient in a successful shop.

Re: What I want from a class/demonstration/video

Mark Hennebury

Hi Bill, I will disagree with you on a few points as usual.

As I see it, there are two kinds of people;

1. leaders/followers.

2. The others.

I lump leaders and followers together as they are not complete people on their own. Leaders will watch the crowd and study the crowd, if the crowd likes red trucks, they will sell red trucks. The leaders will sell anything the crowd wants. The leaders trade, their profession, is studying the crowd. They have no interest or connection to what they sell; whatever the crowd wants.

The followers crave leadership, someone to follow, some parental figure that gives them all of the answers and takes all of the doubt and questions away. They don't like not knowing, they feel lost without answers, the answers don't have to be correct, the just have to given. So they seek the loudest voices, the soapbox hero's screaming from the pulpit. The voices that answers all of their questions, so that they don't have to live with uncertainty.

The others, are driven by their interests, and will go where it takes them, wherever it takes them, far from the crowds, deep into unknown lands, to see how far one can go. They don't go for reward or fame, they go out of curiosity, to explore and learn.

Why would I teach a student what they want to know?

A student doesn't know, that's what makes them a student.

When an explorer returns from their travels, only they know what they have seen.

They can teach you what they have learnt, it might be worth listening to them tell you what there is to learn, rather than you telling them what you want to learn, when you have never been on the trip.

You can find reliable and efficient in a successful shop at Ikea.

I have an idea of what i think is important for students to learn, I will teach that.

Very well...

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have an idea of what i think is important for students to learn, I will teach that. Then you owe it to the the perspective student to divulge how you came to know what a student should learn.

I was faced with preparing these veneered panels. The veneer was wrinkly as expected for such figure. A trip to the internet would have led to many procedures for flattening it, and many recommendations for how to glue it to a substrate and what glue to use. What to do?

I was at the time in the Mack Headley shop, a place that performed this woodworking operation frequently and had been for 3 generations of putting veneered Period Furniture products out the door.

For the procedure they used it was judged it would not need flattening prior to gluing. The result was a success. In fact success was assured. This example illustrates where to go to find woodworking information that assuredly leads to success. I have used what I learned on these panels for many more, and the result was always a success.

Re: Very well...

Mark Hennebury

Hi Bill,

the Mack Headley shop seems to be a great resource for you.

We come from different places and have a different approach to woodworking.

This tree has a lot of branches, and everyone's take is a little different.

You come from a science background, so you know that you need a thorough understanding of the basics before you can proceed to work competently.

I believe that a good understanding of the basics is necessary. Wood structure, moisture content, shrinkage and expansion, cutting tool geometry, machine tool setup, layout, referencing, project management etc.. With that behind you, you can figure how to build almost anything.

If you don't have the basics, then you will be working blind, making mistakes, asking others to tell you what to do or how to do it.

For instance, It doesn't take long to learn the basics of understanding wood, yet, i see many posts from woodworkers that obviously don't.

Woodworking shouldn't be mysterious. For the most part it's quite simple and straightforward, a "paint by numbers" deal.

So I guess that I have a way that i think woodworking should be taught, based on my own experiences and mistakes.

There is some simply knowledge required, the rest is about your attitude , motivation, goals, discipline and values etc.

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

TomD

I think there are people who will idly watch stuff both at the beginer and expert level. The latter because there is very little knowledge they will need to know, so they vaccum stuff up on the "even if I get one tip basis". Sometimes the tip and where it ends up is circuitous.

Being idiosyncratic about your method is maybe fine, but if one stacks a ton of additional peculiarities on there, it may be even less likely to attract an audience, which is ultimately the point, unless it is merely a vanity project. And video with a few hundred views soon take care of vanity. Are you here at Woodcentral because it is run as you are proposing to run your channel.

Anyway, I am off to watch your video. I am actually interested in that subject after reading about how Krenov spent a week trying to match up to curves by hand planing.

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

TomD

I watched the video. Liked it.

Comments:

Two things seem to sell video. You the person, and production values. (The topic and insight [the stuff we are proud of] narrows your audience. Even a popular topic narrows your audience to the popular topic. There are 7 billion people in the world, ish. The largest selling music album sold under 50 million certified copies. That is a lot of narrowing).

- Overhead view was terrible, you are basically not in it, and the subject mater was often partially out of frame. Everyone hates that vertical cell phone view, and apparently all you have to do it turn it 90 degrees, or something.

- Easiest way to loose credibility is not to wear all the safety gear. I know a lot of people in industry that don't do it, but someone might see you not wearing hearing protection (did I miss plugs?) when operating a router, and not do it themselves, and blow out that register. A pro might say, "screw it" I am not wearing that crap every day, and I will just not have that register. They will probably get by OK, but if an amateur does it, they can literally loose that register from one use of the router, and what for? No upside.

I also think for people who are self teaching, when something goes wrong, not jumping out of you boots from the sometimes explosive noise that accompanies disasters is one way not to get further into the deep end of the soup.

I remember having this lovely conversation with this couple while I was out cycle touring. They were doing this little day ride, I was on a 3 week camping trip. I'm their hero. Then the guy goes, "where is your helmet". ( carried one for places where it was the law, or bad stuff like cycling through mountains in the rain), but there was no reason to wear one this day. The guy looked at me like I was a Nazi from Mars, when I said I wasn't wearing one. Obviously one of these people who thinks it will make the difference when they get T-boned by a semi. But I "lost him" for ever. That is how toxic it was.

- Play the video back at different speeds, to see how you sound best, and also so you can see how you look at 1.5 X, as that is the way a lot of people watch video. You may notice hand gestures that look wacky at speed (I didn't, just pointing out you need to be watchable at different speeds).

- Your first sentence or so was not terribly audible, I am great at deciphering the Anglosphere accents. Even so. You might sing a verse of Happy Birthday, to get your voice up to tone, before you hit the red button. Or say some heroic poetry out loud.

- People will tune in because of your personality more so that your knowledge (which is part of your personality, of course), so be more relatable. A story about when you first did this, or what once went wrong, etc... A short segment on your shop, or a tool. Give people different contexts to be roped in. But try to keep to 10 minutes overall.

- Smile

- I don't like router noise in my headphones, that should be suppressed. I don't know how you do it, but youtube probably has a thousand vids on it.

- Branding. You need all that stuff, opening credits, and home name, music. There is a video by this guy on Youtube, he is the guy who did a lot of the music for famous TV shows, I think I was looking up the Rockford Files theme when I found him. A director in one of his shows, liked him a lot, and let him know that his music, was according to however they do that stuff, about 33% of the reason people watched the show. But he was getting comparative pennies. I was shocked. Obviously shows would not be as watchable without music, but 1/3rd! Now this is not even about music. But when I think Rockford Files, I think Garner, but apparently 1/3rd was the music. Some would have been the script, the production, cinematography, other cast members, etc... That show was famous for the fact Garner is in almost all the scenes. But even as strong as he was, he wasn't the whole show. Which I suppose explains why they could can him when they ultimately had differences. So if you are perfect, and everything you say and do is perfect, you are probably only going to amount to 10-25% of any youtube channel's appeal. Music may be a bridge too far, but there has to be a lot more in a video, than just a person with fantastic presence and great ideas. I have some ideas I would like to get out, but I don't do video, in part because my appetite to do the other 90% is not there.

Would you be willing to do a script. Produce to an episode length. Edit multiple shots, etc... etc...

- Drop names. I had a video with 7 thousand views at one point. I canned it because there were a few shots of family members. The only reason it got those views in a few months was because it legitimately mentioned the name of the boat designer of the boat featured in the video. And there is hardly a more obscure yacht designer in the United States.

There is an etiquette to this stuff, but at a minimum you want to load up the categories you list under, and if one of them was the brand of router used, or something else, get it in the title or the links. I really don't know anything about this stuff, but doubtless you need to spend at least the same amount of time working the video's exposure as making it, there is all kinds of stuff out there on how to do this.

I always noticed that the highest number of views for threads around here were for "LV releases a pencil pocket protector... " I know I peeked at them.

If you know you have 10 great ideas, look at what other strong channels lead with, did they get all the great info out when their channel had no traffic?

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

Mark Hennebury

Many thanks Tom, very valuable info for me.

A little daunting to take it all in, but I know how to do big jobs, by breaking into groups, taking one thing from one group and doing that, then move on to the next. Still It seems like an awful lot of work to take on and I don't know if i have the energy, willpower or desire. I have already have had a few comments which make me think i may not have the tolerance to deal with some of the people and the dumb stuff they say.

I got my face busted up two years ago, split lip, teeth knocked out, so i now have a slight speech impediment, constantly feels like i have a fat lip and sounds like i have just come from the dentist. So the smiling thing is out also. I may have to get a stand-in for the head shots, and voice overs.

I guess the content better be good.

I love music and have a great and varied collection, maybe I can look into that.

I see what kind of videos get millions of view in a day, and its usually people pulling stupid faces or making outrageous claims, so I understand some angry old guy mumbling about how to cut a joint is probably not going to win any awards for top video views.

The thing is If I do it, I will try to make it interesting and get good information out.

Re: Mark - who is your audience?

Mark Hennebury

As for being here on Woodcentral; I enjoy the vibe, the contributors, a few in particular, I enjoy engaging in challenging discussions, making a contribution to the knowledge, challenging people to think, and enjoy the occasional joke even though it may not always be appreciated. I think that Ellis does a great job running the forum, and Ellis and most of the members have been quite tolerant of me, for which I am grateful. Coming to Woodcentral feels little like dropping in to the local pub.

My audience in theory could be quite wide and diverse from beginner to expert, although from what I see that is popular these days, most wont be interested in what I do. I can help you to understand wood, and joinery, layout, cutting tools and machinery etc. which may be of help in every project that you do. My interest was in working with solidwood, traditional style joinery, precision and efficiency, of that I can speak. In regards to running a successful business, I have no experience. Running a successful business requires that you supply what is in demand, as several people tried in vain to point out to me over the years. As one of my customers once put it; "I like blue trucks, my customers like red trucks, I sell red trucks."

Reason for teaching videos;

I don't know that you can strip down ones reasons into a single point, we are too complex for that, but I am sure that vanity is a part.

I have made stuff since I was a kid, bows and arrows, ( even made the flights from turkey feathers, and the metal tips. Crossbows (serious ones with 100lb pull) even made the metal triggers in metalwork class at school back in the 60's. Knives, slingshots, rafts and forts, I loved chopping down tress and building forts when I was young. I learned to make boots and shoes when I was a teenager, I went around town to the shoe repair shops asking if anyone new how to make shoes, and was directed to an old, long retired, shoemaker who helped me and gave me some of his tools.

I started woodworking long before the internet, my father was a carpenter and joiner, I always made stuff. Then did woodworking and metalwork at school, then

on my own with a few handtools. I struggled, I read books I learned, I got better, I read all of the monthly industrial magazines like "Wood and wood Products" that I could get, and all of the studio magazines like "Fine Woodworking" magazines. I got books on joinery, Japanese joinery, and "Understanding Wood" by Bruce Hoadley. I made furniture that I saw in the magazines by all of the famous people, Like George Nakashima, James Krenov, Sam Maloof, Ian Kirby, I learned what I could and moved on. I started buying machinery, then moved on to better machinery, bought old machines and stripped them down and tuned them up in an effort to do the best work and to do it in the most efficient way. This was before the internet, so information was not as easy to get as it is now. I wrote letters to the departments of industry in Germany, Italy and Japan to get a list of all of the woodworking machinery manufactures in those countries. Then poured through the lists and wrote to the different companies for catalogues of their machines, then wrote to the for information on individual machines that were of interest to me. I couldn't afford new machines, but I new what to look for at auctions and got some good deals on great machines, and learnt how to fix them up and use them. I bought tool and cutter grinders and experimented with different tool geometry in an effort to understand cutting tools. I designed and had made custom router bits, and made my own tools and machines. This is how I learnt about Supersurfacers and Maka mortisers etc. I did a lot of joinery, experimented with new joints, made some great joints.

What took me 25 years to learn, could be taught in a few months if it was done right.

I used to teach night classes in my shop 40 years ago, I always enjoyed it, doing videos will be different of course, so I will see how it goes.

I am 67 and as I lose more friends and family each year I am ever more reminded that this ride is coming to an end. I have lost several good friends that were great woodworkers, and it strikes hard that all of that knowledge is gone. I have learnt a lot over the years and would like to add it to the pool, hopefully to help and maybe inspire others to push on and explore. Maybe I just want to feel that I will leave a little something behind, to show that I was here, that I counted /contributed.

Not sure what you want to call that.

The photo below;

This is one of the joints that I designed about 35 years ago. I have not seen it anywhere else, but of course it is possible that it has been done before. The photo was lifted off of my website and has been circulating around the internet without any credit to me for the past 15 years or more advertised as a traditional Japanese joint, but it isn't, its my design. I still have some of the original pieces of wood.

So I guess that you could say that I am actually quite famous.

alternative comments

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I didn't wade through all of Tom's comments but from what I saw I disagree with many.

I don't have time nor inclination to watch UTube video for entertainment. (that's one audience) If I call up your video it is because I want to learn how to make that joint. Period! Tell me what stuff I need to have on hand to make it and then tell me how to use this stuff. A well rehearsed 5 minutes would suffice. I don't care if you are using ear plugs, or whether your voice sounds like an NPR announcer so long as I can understand what you are saying and you are not wasting my time with extraneous stuff or repetition. I can't remember what you looked like nor how you sounded. I remember needless repetition resulting from lack of rehearsal.

It drives me bananas to call up a video to learn to change the igniter in the gas stove and 2 minutes pass before anything I need to know is divulged. (not something you did )

My son in law is trying to learn wood working via Internet video. He occasionally shows me someone doing something. It becomes apparent in 2 minutes whether the person teaching is a professional that practices what he is teaching. One can tell by the extraneous stuff that in included. If you had lectured me for a minute on proper router safety and ear protection before the topic at hand began I would be gone in 45 seconds.

What I would have done in your demo for my 1 member audience:

1 Here is what we are going to make (example)

2. To make this part we need a router with a 1/4" bit and this bushing- dimensions and how to make it follow.

3. Here is how we make the cuts- demo

4. Look it fits

5. done

I'd watch that video if I needed to make the joint.

I'll bet video is like writing . One needs a good editor. The more skilled one is at writing the more they realize the value of a good editor. (Ellis is among the best I have worked with) Many people never come to that realization and their writing sucks.

A different audience

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

That joint would appeal to those that troll the Internet for cool stuff. I'll bet a well done video of you making that joint would get a lot of eyeballs. It is the kind of thing my son in law finds somehow and shows me.

I still have some of the original pieces of wood. This statement I found curious for what you did not say. It could have been "The table that I invented this joint for has served me well for 35 years".

While it is a dandy joint for some purpose it would take me hours of practice to execute it to be used in a location where it showed. While I likely would find some other way to solving the problem there are a few that might make something just to experience the joy of mastering the joint. I did that once that involved a novel way of making a domed structure I learned in a demo by Wil Neptune.

Re: alternative comments

Mark Hennebury

I really enjoy the points of view and thank you taking the time to comment.

I am by nature a practical kind of person, worked alone a lot, kind of serious about my work. And don't like the seeming need for theatrics in a few of the popular videos that I have seen. Don't like people talking about stuff they don't know. Don't care to much about keeping people happy and covering all of the outliers concerns. I work the way that works for me, I get results, I wont change to pacify the masses. I may need to put a disclaimer.

Editing is probable the key as you say, I will see if I am up to learning that.

I hope so.

Thanks Bill.

Appreciate the input Bill.

Re: A different audience

Mark Hennebury

Bill,

The joint is one that came from trying to build a better pedestal table joint. It kind of evolved over several iterations after a dissatisfaction with what i new, and turned into a quest to find the perfect joint for the particular job. There is a perfect proportion within the elements of a particular joint that provide a balance, of the right amount of material removed and the right amount left in place to produce the perfect joint for the stresses to be applied. So this was new to me, exciting to leave the book joints and explore potential.

This was not about "good enough" for the job, this was about searching for absolute.

I built a Nakashima conoid table, then saw the weakness in the base design and redesigned the joint to make it many times stronger. Wood is an amazing product, joinery is a fluid product to be adapted to the job. It requires an understanding of wood and stresses, and freedom of mind to follow where it leads.

You may not find any value in this type of joint, as you say there are many alternatives. It is not "practical" to do work like this. just possible. For those searching for how far they can go this is a doorway. To do this joinery you have to understand wood structure, you have to understand accurate dressing lumber, precision marking, referencing and cutting, planning, project management, referencing and error checking etc.. There are many parts that have to be precise for this to fit. If you can do this even as an exercise you would learn a lot.

"The I still have some of the parts" is to validate my statement of ownership.

I personally have no question about the longevity of the joint, unfortunately the joints were on table for customers, so I have no proof of how they have held up. I do have the sample joint that i did after the Nakashima table. I stuck a seat and back on it and used that for a chair in my workshop for many years, it eventually got dropped and the backrest broke off of it. but i still have it. The joint has held up incredible well. The Nakashima joint with the cross brace separate from the the the vertical puts all of the torsional leverage on the long base part which is not that good, moving the crossbrace back and tying it into the vertical increases the strength and rigidity of the joint incredibly. And I don't know how Nakashima's crossbrace was joined, my guess would be a half lap, So i believe my joint is far superior than his joint in terms of strength. Of course you can point out that his joint is strong enough for the job, and i cant argue with that. I was simply driven to see how strong I could do it. I understand that it is overkill, totally unnecessary etc. but that is just the path that I was on.

The point is that there is a lot to learn, once you get passed what is taught and open up to the possibilities of what lies beyond.

If you look at the last two photos you can see the joints in the angled joint are still tight after all these years. The seat has been removed, but still fits on fine. I will at some point repair the backrest.

Re: alternative comments

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Your contributions here on WC have validated the fact that you are a source of reliable, useful and often novel woodworking information. How big is the audience for this information? I don't know. I always read your posts here for the above reasons.

If I was faced with building a pedestal table I would have studied your video if I had found it, and I would have been tolerant of a less than professional presentation. It would be obvious to me that you knew what you were doing and credibility is everything if I am looking for information to use.

At the other extreme, a professionally presented video on making that joint would be a winner for those that watch woodworking video for entertainment.

When I needed to learn to free hand sharpen a large twist drill I looked to the Internet. I tolerated a fairly poorly done video to learn how because the refined videos were done by people that obviously did not sharpen drill bits as part of their job as a machinist. The machinist showed me how without extraneous details that were in fact unimportant. Two minutes to watch how and 30 seconds to get the job done. I did not need to build a jig to ensure the angle was accurate to +/- 1 degree, as an example of the foolishness some examples of "instruction". I'm uninterested in a demonstration of how "smart" the presenter wants me to believe they are. It will show in the details of what they emphasize and what they don't if they know their stuff.

That's the validation I was looking for

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If you made the joint because you could, I'm uninterested. Nothing personal; it's just my nature. Because you made the joint to solve a challenging engineering problem on a product, that got my attention.

I don't look to studio furniture makers as a reliable source of engineering. Krenov is an exception. When all the details are revealed he devised some sound engineering for his pieces. I wish more of the engineering and less of the philosophy had been revealed in his books. Fortunately I had access to a student to learn the details.

Re: A different audience

John Jardin

Mark,

Thank you for the video showing the method for joining the irregular curved parts and thank you also for showing the great joint design you created for the table.

PS - nice lathe