curved wood question, actual woodworking...

Re: curved wood question, actual woodworking...

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have not seen the chair but the 1/2" thickness seems too thick for this kind of chair part. For a comfy chair these elements need to have some give.

I'd laminate them, but...

Ellis Walentine

If I understand correctly, this serpentine curve has an amplitude of about 3". That is too curvy to bandsaw without creating short grain and compromising strength. Laminating would give you a good combination of strength and uniformity, so that would be the safest way. You'd have to deal with the appearance of the laminates on the edges of the spindles, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker. Don't make them any thinner than necessary.

This said, steam bending would also be possible, though unpredictable. White oak is a good wood for steam bending. If you prepare blanks wide enough to get one chair's worth of spindles from each blank, they should stay pretty close to aligned when you rip out the individual spindles.

Ellis

Re: curved wood question, actual woodworking...

Barry Irby

Been playing with them, Made one out of crappy oak to see what happens. Thinking about sawing them out so that the center section where the curves are is a little thicker, say 5/8" front to back but still half inch wide. And half inch front to back to make them bendy. The reasoning for the 5/8 part is to compensate for the short grain. The "curved" part is about 16" tall so the curves are very gentle. By orienting them in the blanks at a slight angle I can also compensate for the short grain.

I am considering breaking the proto type but I am not sure what that would tell me.

Re: I'd laminate them, but...

Barry Irby

My problem is they are nine in a row. My original plan was to laminate them out of four 1/8" layers.

Hmmm? Maybe the thing to do is make up a form that will allow bending 10 at a time. Maybe 6 or 7" wide. Then I could get nine or ten spindles 1/2" wide out of each layup. Glue up one a day for six days and I am golden.

In spite of the spindle I wrote about to Bill's answer I am still skeptical of the short grain and the longevity of raw wood spindles.

What glue would you use for the laminations?

Re: curved wood question, actual woodworking...

David Weaver

Steam bend 70 of them and match sets after bending.

Re: I'd laminate them, but...

Jesse Cloud

Here's an example, not spindles, but close...

This chair was made 12 years ago and it and its 5 sibs have held up flawlessly, except for replacing worn out upholstery a few years ago.

It was made with lamination. I used a wide mdf form that would produce two splats per glue up. The edges were then cut with a second form (sacrificial) with a template and a router. Likewise the negative space in the middle. The glue was plain old titebond. Clamping was with a vacuum bag.

At least with this curly maple, the laminated edges look pretty natural. Key to this is to keep the laminations in the sequence they were cut.

By the way, the walnut legs were laminated too. The crest rail is solid wood cut with a bandsaw.

Nicely done! Inspiring - thanks

Re: I'd laminate them, but...Jesse..questions

Barry Irby

Thanks for posting that....That is about the curve I am looking for...How thick were you laminations?

I am thinking four at about 1/8". Would it be better to use more that were thinner?

How long did you leave then in the form?

Beautiful chair. Mine will be more "cubic", with back legs straight.

One more question....What is the seat height? Did you allow for the foam? I guess that's two questions or one compound one.

Re: I'd laminate them, but...Jesse..questions

Roy

Thomas Moser in his book on Windsor chairs showed how he used veneer to glue up the curved back and arms of his various chairs. So thinner would work for your chairs.

Roy

Re: curved wood question, actual woodworking...

William Duffield

I would do a bent lamination, with a structural epoxy (West System, System 3 T-88, Total Boat, etc.) Depending on the type and figure of the wood, you should consider gluing up the whole splat and resawing it on the TS into individual slats, to preserve the figure match.

I have had good results with a curved glue mold and lot of clamps.

To build in tapers at both ends, I would modify the thickness of the central lamination, tapering it to nearly zero at both ends. There are lots of ways to do that, each more interesting than the last. I'll leave it as an exercise for you.

Editorial comment: Why do so many modern furniture makers go to such contortions to accomplish something which has been done quite elegantly for a couple centuries in Windsor chairs, with only a froe and mallet, a draw knife and shave horse, a steam box and a pegboard with a handful of dogs and wedges, and a little practice? And then the modernists think they have been successful when their result looks like its manufacture was untouched by human hands???

Re: I'd laminate them, but...Jesse..questions

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I made a Windsor a la Moser’s book. I kept the lams about 3/32”. It a compound curve, so thinner is better.

Re: curved wood question, actual woodworking...

Don Stephan

My understanding is that steam bending and laminating with a non-rigid glue like titebond likely will have some springback when removed from clamping. Epoxy and plastic resin are both rigid glues reducing the chance for springback. Might be worthwhile searching on the Internet for 1/16" or 1/8" QS wood veneer and doing some testing before committing to a particular approach.

Jesse Cloud’s chairs

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I’ve seen his chairs in person and can vouch that they are very well made and have held together very well. He told me they were laminated but I had to look to see the laminations. BTW he has a great house and shop!

Re: I'd laminate them, but...Jesse..questions

Jesse Cloud

Thanks for posting that....That is about the curve I am looking for...How thick were you laminations?

Couple of confessions here: I wasn't looking for a certain thickness, more something that looked good. And after all I said about keeping the lams in sequence, I have 3 lams of about 0.10 inch thick and the two show faces are much nicer commercial veneer at about 0.03 inches. Doing it that way saves big bucks and I forgot that was what I did. The total thickness is about 0.310 or about 5/16. I was surprised that the lams still looked ok on the edge since I used two different types of maple.

I am thinking four at about 1/8". Would it be better to use more that were thinner.

More and thinner are always better, but personally I wouldn't go to 1/2 inch thick.

How long did you leave then in the form?

I left them in overnight, did a pair of splats each glue-up, so three glue-ups.

Beautiful chair. Mine will be more "cubic", with back legs straight.

Thanks.

One more question....What is the seat height? Did you allow for the foam? I guess that's two questions or one compound one.

These chairs are 17 inches high, not including foam (which largely compresses when you sit on it). They have seated guests from 5'3'' to 6'8'" and no one has complained. BTW, for best comfort the seats should be angled at about 3-5 degrees so that the knees are higher than the butt. I do that, but it greatly complicates the joinery.

By the way, there is money to be made in custom height chairs. Most tall and short people have never sat in a comfortable chair. I did a few custom chairs and make a protyping jig that can change seat height, lumbar location, and angle of recline for the back. People loved those chairs and were willing to pay serious money for them.

Re: Jesse Cloud’s chairs

Jesse Cloud

Thanks for the kind words Bruce. If you are ever in the neighborhood again please do stop by.

Re: curved wood question, actual woodworking...

Jesse Cloud

I agree with everything that you said, but I don't think a little springback in this application would be a problem.

If all the splats are made the same way with the same materials, the springbuck should be consistent and the chair should look fine.

Thanks Jesse, great detail...

Barry Irby

I was especially taken by the part about the 3 to 5 degrees lower at the butt. It seems like a good idea but runs counter to the business about rolling down the front to prevent pressure under the thighs.

I have avoided chairs with a sense of dread and fascination. I feel like chairs have been pursuing me forever.

What is serious money? Now that I have been caught and forced into making chairs what are the possibilities for profit?

Re: Thanks Jesse, great detail...

Sgian Dubh

"What is serious money? Now that I have been caught and forced into making chairs what are the possibilities for profit?"

Having made a number of typical four legged dining type chairs over the years, i.e., two shaped an profiled short front legs, two curved long rear legs, comb and back splat(s), angled side rails, plus a variety of seats, e.g., shaped solid, drop-in, stuff-over, carvers (with arms), I think it's true to say that being able to price to make a profit can be tricky. Typically, for a relatively complex chair I allow anywhere between forty to sixty hours to prototype the first one, after which I generally reckon it can anywhere between 30 and sixty hours per chair for a set of six.

Naturally, the ability to make a profit depends almost entirely on a range of factors. Some chairs are so basic there's little or no prototyping required and you can just jump right in. Chairs with complex geometry, shaping, carving, profiling, and so on can take quite a while to work out all the technical challenges before you even get started on the building of the actual set of chairs. Then, of course, once you've worked out how to make the chair(s) in question, and how long the job itself will take, there's the cost of all the material plus profit, and what you're able, or want, to charge per hour. Generally, I'd say that making a profit building dining chairs can be, well, quite challenging. Slainte.

Re: Thanks Sgian, great detail...

Re: Thanks Jesse, great detail...

Jesse Cloud

"What is serious money?"

Well, "serious" was probably a bad choice of words. The most I sold a custom chair for was $2,000 - which seemed like a lot to me. As Sgian pointed out, there is a tremendous amount of labor involved in a high end chair and making a profit is elusive.

It took me about 40 hours of labor to make that chair and it was hard work. Materials were probably $200 - 300, depending on type of wood and material for seat upholstery.

I never tried to make a living off the chairs, I am comfortably retired and had lots of other things I wanted to do.

Unless you are a super talent like Brian Boggs or Sam Maloof, chairs are not going to make you rich.

I guess I should have said something like people are willing to pay a fair price for a custom chair and not expect you to come in cheaper than Walmart like my sister-in-law does.

Re: Thanks Jesse, great detail...

Sgian Dubh

I've worked for employers that wouldn't take on standard dining chairs, plus carver(s) because they reckoned it was too hard to make a profit. In a couple of cases the employer would be happy to take on making a dining a table to match chairs that a customer would buy elsewhere, but I don't know if they ever got a commission that way. I must admit that I'd rather take on a dining table than a set of chairs if it's a case, essentially, of determining which project would be most likely to result in a profit. Slainte.

Re: I'd laminate them too, Joe Woodworker

Grant Smith

I bought a vacuum lamination kit from Joe Woodworker about 67 year ago. It works beautifully, and I am always impressed with the results. I use my air compressor to provide the clamping pressure. It worked fine on a 7 gallon contractor compressor using a 4 x 8 bag.

Great website you can read until your hearts content, good kits with what you need and instructions.

I initially made water skis that have held up nicely even given that beating. Since then, I have used it for elegant arcs and such using 2" styrofoam (Owens corning pink or blue). Works great!

https://www.google.com/search?q=joe+woodworker&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS880US883&oq=Joe+WOodworker&aqs=chrome.0.0l3j0i22i30l3j0i10i22i30.5442j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Re: I'd laminate them too, Joe Woodworker

Grant Smith

Eeep, meant to say 6 or 7 years ago...

regional effect...

David Weaver

..if one is looking for a solid wood relatively plain dining chair here (or somewhat nicer, but still all power tool made kind of bits), the mennonite shops kill the market for makers (and make good chairs available for people without being of means).

Not sure about the rest of the US.

A friend of mine (who lives closer to where warren is) had an amishman make 4 dining tables and chair sets for them. The tables were leaf type, relatively plain oak. $400 each (figure $600 in current dollars maybe), finished. 10 leaves. Bonkers.

Since they had four sets of chairs, he itemized the costs for them. They're given some sort of light stain and finished with polyurethane. He asked $10 a chair. They had 24 chairs and declined to pay that because they found a mennonite chair shop that would do the same for $5 a chair.

Imagine quoting someone $10 a chair for stain and finish only to find out that you've been torpedoed for half as much. obviously, this wasn't french polishing work, but I looked at the table and it was given a quick accurate finish (could be lacquer and not poly, too - it was before I started woodworking.

All solid chairs at the chair shop near my inlaws start around $125 with finish, but the styles are "sort of" styles. They may look sort of shaker or be kind of something else, but less crisp and more bulky and rounded. Who cares if kids are going to beat them up, anyway.