WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

OT Tree guy question

Posts

OT Tree guy question

#1

OT Tree guy question

Barry Irby

My friend lives in a planned neighborhood where they planted maple trees along the side of the streets. Everybody has at least one and some people have two or three. They are some type of common soft maple. A tree company arborist type person told the wife that if she wanted to keep the tree roots from buckling their concrete driveway and sidewalk they should prone the tree back severely and keep the top under control. According to them that would keep the roots smaller and prevent them growing enough to buckle the concrete. (I suspect he then gave her an estimate for the work.)

I have never heard this before and wonder if it's true. What say you.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#2

Re: OT Tree guy question

Steve D, CT

I'm not a tree guy but knowing that a plant's energy for growth comes from photosynthesis it could be true.

Bonsai trees are old and don't break up driveways or their little pots.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#3

Re: OT Tree guy question

Martin S.

I have a BSF and MSF and took a class specific to the care of shade trees.

I have never heard of this concept.

I have heard of "dehorning", which is commonly practiced in Europe.

We were taught never to do it, as it was harmful to the tree.

Here's a link...

https://www.growingagreenerworld.com/tree-topping-what-you-dont-know-is-killing-your-trees/

If you don't like the tree roots messing up your sidewalk, move the sidewalk.

Trees, especially large, established shade trees, add significant value to real estate.

My advice, keep the trees, lose or move the sidewalk.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#4

Short answer: *LINK*

Tom Dunlap

BS

Run that hack out of town, they don't know the first part about tree physiology.

Don't have them do any work.

I don't have the ambition to debunk what the guy is saying. It would take too much time.

If that hack is so confident in his work ask him if his insurance company will back up what he is saying in case there is ever root damage and the driveway needs repair.

Dehorning is another word for topping which is not pollarding which you might have noticed in Europe. There is lots of good literature out there on the proper application of pollarding and comparing it to the awful practice of topping.

ONe possibility for controlling the size of trees is to use growth regulators. TCI magazine is a reputable source:

http://tcimag.tcia.org/tree-care/what-can-tree-growth-regulators-do-for-you/

Follow this link to the consumer access page for tree information. the ISA is the professional education association.


Intl. Society of Arborculture

Re: OT Tree guy question

#5

Re: Short answer:

Martin S.

Thanks for the clarification, Tom.

My major professor was Dr. M. Victor Bilan, a well known tree physiologist.

I must have gotten confused about the term dehorning and what is done in Europe, I thought they were the same. Thanks for the correction.

In any case, we both agree that what the OP suggested is a bad idea.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#6

Chris Scholz

One can keep a tree small by pruning...

Chris Scholz

...but there is a lot more to it than lopping off the top.

You'll have to carefully develop an apex, place each branch just about the way you (or the tree) wants it and ramify the appearance. This usually includes root pruning, fertilization and specialized soil.

Bonsai is a fun craft and a form of art. Just like woodworking it's a long-term commitment. Along the way you'll have many dead trees, as the bonsai masters tend to say: "if you have not killed a tree, you are not a bonsai master yet".

Your local arborist is usually not trained in bonsai. Instead, join a local bonsai club. Usually those are fun-loving groups with many educational programs for beginners and advanced bonsai practitioners.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#7

Thanks to all, and....

Barry Irby

like most BS there was just a glimmer of possibility in what he said to make me go Hmm?

I told them the easiest way to control the growth was to kill the tree about every ten years and plant a little one. I love trees, but if you see ME hugging one, I am just checking the board feet.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#8

BS vs. reality

Steve D, CT

like most BS there was just a glimmer of possibility

Yup. I haven't seen any extreme pruning of trees that worked out well. Theoretically, killing the trees would also prevent the roots from growing too much but that's not what you want.

Maples are notorious for aggressive roots that raise the ground level around the trunk. A short sighted choice for planting adjacent to pavement.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#9

planned community...

David Weaver

.usually the sidewalk is put in the community and you don't have an option, but you do have the burden of upkeep.

My FIL planted four pinoak trees when he built his house 40 years ago, and then 4 red maples. Eventually, he cut the maples down not due to a house (they're far away), but because their root system will beat up anyone mowing close to the trees.

I would choose a different tree, though that may not be allowed in a planned community.

I think what you're referring to as dehorning is called pollarding here. It's done commonly in my neighborhood due to above ground electrical wires. The option for a property owner is to constantly prune a tree or pollard it so that the tree doesn't grow out at the level of the wires. I've not seen a tree here that didn't recover, but they do look terrible at the outset. Once they've recovered and grown for a while, they're pretty interesting, though - trees with large branches that have a defined elbow, but more importantly, they don't get whacked by the utility company (in that case, the solution is a hard cut back in a L shape - it won't cost the property owner as the utility company takes care of it here, but the result can be regrettable).

Re: OT Tree guy question

#10

Terrible  -...

David Weaver

...the biggest thing that sticks out here is that someone thought it would be a good idea to plant maple trees near sidewalks around an entire community.

Once the trees have a canopy, there will be two problems - lack of grass growth near the sidewalk, and root issues. Cutting roots on one side is a bad idea, too.

In this case, I'd pummel the trees with pruning, even though it's not good for them, and hope the rules ease later so I could plant an ornamental tree that's pretty and doesn't have intrusive roots.

I wonder how long it will be before these tree roots cause sewer line problems, too.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#11

I'm curious

David Weaver

...if this tree is trimmed back hard constantly and kept, let's say, in a 20' round ball, why would we assume that the roots would grow as large and vigorous as it would if it were left alone in a large canopy (where it would have far more ability to convert light and food to tree and root)?

Not advocating for the arborist here, but it just doesn't make sense to me that a tree that's a small fraction of the size of another tree will have similarly vigorous and voluminous roots.

I'd still lean on the side of fixing this problem once if it's allowed, which is removing the maple trees and replacing them with something else.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#12

Re: OT Tree guy question

Philip F Duffy

The School of Dendrology at Va Tech is a world class place to find answers to your question and many others,, p

Re: OT Tree guy question

#13

Wrong solutions

Tom Dunlap

Dr Alex Shigo...the Father of Modern Arborculture...said: There is no balance in nature, there is dynamic equilibrium.

One side moves...the other adjusts. Balance is static, nature is not.

ANother line of his: It's all about doseage.

In order to reduce the roots on a tree the canopy would have to be almost totally removed. Not the right solution. This would have to be done routinely and would lead to a lot of decay. If a tree were properly pollarded it could be kept small both canopy and roots. But in my 45 plus years as an arbo I have NOT SEEN ONE proper pollarding project in the US.

Whacking away at roots near walk and drives is not the right solution either...if you want a healthy low risk tree. If you don't care..then whack away.

Trees are incredibly tolerant of damage, either natural from storms etc. and human caused. A lot can be done to them and they won't die right now. They will live on and die or fail later.

Reading how people here at WC build and finish projects has taught me a lot. It takes a lot of work to do a good job that isn't noticed or valued by most people. The work needed to have healthy and old trees is similar. No skipping steps. No amateur guesswork. Ask questions of professionals and do your own research too. Whacking down trees because of the inconvenience of surface roots and lawn is a sad excuse for lawn. Get rid of the turf and mulch. Read how to properly attempt, you might not be successful, to keep roots from growing under walks and drives. There is more than one graduate level research paper that has been written on this topic. It's not hard to find out what the professionals know and what is more accepted in the profession. Whacking away at trees isn't acceptable

Shigo also said that a good way to find a tree care professional is to ask them to spell chlorophyll. Then ask them to explain it.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#14

Re: Terrible  -...

Jesse Cloud

In my relative youth I built a stone wall. I read a how-to book first. The only thing I now remember from the book is "A well made stone wall should last 500 years before needing major repair, unless there is a tree nearby. Then it will need major work within 50 years."

By the way, I drove by there last year - the wall is still standing proud with no indication of repair after 30 years.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#15

wanting to save trees...

David Weaver

..I'm curious as to why getting rid of trees is such a bad thing if someone doesn't like them.

In the case where my FIL got rid of the maples, I'd have done the same. But the issue is no longer wanting the trees vs. wanting them but thinking you had to get rid of them, anyway. The latter would be a bad move. The former just seems like a reasonable move.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#16

Re: wanting to save trees...

Tom Dunlap

I got a call from a guy who wanted a 36" diameter 300 year old burr oak cut down because it dropped leaves in his plastic 'ponds'. I told him he had no right to have those trees cut down because they belong to the neighborhood and all future owners of his house. Sure I was being judgemental and I don't care.

There are solutions for tree problems that aren't removal.

Like I said above TGRs...tree growth regulators..are a great solution for some issues. Surface roots can be mulched and not mowed. Flexible surface sidewalks can be used. Root barriers installed. Proper planning of planting locations when the tree goes in the ground.

Most arborists would rather be surgeons than executioners.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#17

Maybe remove

Tom Dunlap

In the OP the first treeguy is saying that severe crown reduction would eliminate driveway damage. I doubt it. My guess is that he has a chipper payment to make so he needs brush to chip.

Without seeing the property there's no way to know.

Sometimes removal and replacement is the best solution though.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#18

I know less about trees...

David Weaver

..than you do, but I've seen enough maples to know that if I expected them to not grow much underground, they'd need to be nearly ceased above ground.

My first thought was still what I'd go with if I were allowed in that situation - remove them and plant something else that doesn't cause the same problems. It's a permanent solution.

As to the guy who owned the large tree and wanted it removed, most arborists I know have the same view as you do. But I think that's exclusive to arborists as well as some folks who feel that one of their property rights is also curating the properties around them by demand above and beyond legal requirements.

I had a neighbor across my back fence who had three large maple trees in his yard. He had them all cut because he thought they made too much work (for scale here, he had a 1/3rd acre yard and went around his yard twice a day with a leaf blower all year to remove anything at all in the grass). I called him Dippy. I wasn't that excited that he removed his trees, but that was his right. Many others in the neighborhood have removed or severely thinned older trees- there is a point with a neighborhood the age of mine (80 years) where the mature trees are getting to be a bit much for the neighborhood itself, even though my first reaction is that they should all be kept if they're not causing problems (I grew up in the trees).

But, unless there is a legal mechanism to require a property owner to keep trees, at least here, there's no shortage of trees. I side with the property owner who wants to remove them.

I also have rose of sharon bordering my entire yard. It's old and mature and very tall. Dippy did make mention to my wife that since 80 feet of them border his property and they drop leaves, he was thinking about removing them. I began to think he didn't have a brain as they grow in the fence that borders my property and I wondered why he suspected that they were even on his property (they're not - they're in my fence). That would be where I'd draw the line- they also prevent us from sitting on our back yard and looking into the neighbor's yard or house - I don't know what happened, but I was in favor of sending him a certified letter notifying him that the R.O.S. weren't on his property and other than the bits that grow across the property line (the sun is on my side, so they grow over my yard, not his), he was not to touch them.

I didn't voice any concern over his trees or leaves to him, of course. I thought he was a bit naive because the arborist who came to cut one tree and ended up coming back to cut all three made mention to him something about the tree close to his house dying any time and becoming a problem - it was a hard maple tree with no issues. We have some rotten ones here scaring property owners with stories of a healthy tree that could soon due and start dropping branches.

(It'd always be nice at least if someone is going to cut a tree down, if they don't want the wood, to leave it for the neighborhood. The arborist that does most of the work here - same one as above - will have his workers buck all of the wood they fall, and then halve it if needed and grind it. I'm guessing he offers that as an extra fee. For some reason, that wasting of mature clear trees even to the point that they aren't left for someone in the neighborhood to collect as firewood really bothers me).

Re: OT Tree guy question

#19

Re: I know less about trees...

Bill Howatt

You raise a good point and this is one of those arguments where there is no 100% right or wrong in all cases.

My observation comes from the TV news when a storm has gone through a residential area, and I'm not strictly talking about tornado areas, just an area that may get a freak storm. In many cases the broken exposed trunks of the larger tree lying across a roof or car indicate they were no longer totally solid and should have been removed earlier.

Bill

Re: OT Tree guy question

#20

You might check...

John K Jordan

Just a suggestion: If some of the stems grow through the property line fence you might check the regulations/laws in your area. I once researched this for my area for trees. The bottom line: in most cases an adjoining property owner can remove any part of a neighbor's tree that grows over the fence. The laws get more complicated if a tree is exactly on the property line and I think there were other rules for fruit-bearing trees.

I have no idea if this applies to shrubs or to your area. Dealing with a lawsuit could be undesirable, regardless of who is "right".

JKJ

>>>I also have rose of sharon bordering my entire yard. It's old and mature and very tall. Dippy did make mention to my wife that since 80 feet of them border his property and they drop leaves, he was thinking about removing them. I began to think he didn't have a brain as they grow in the fence that borders my property and I wondered why he suspected that they were even on his property (they're not - they're in my fence). That would be where I'd draw the line- they also prevent us from sitting on our back yard and looking into the neighbor's yard or house - I don't know what happened, but I was in favor of sending him a certified letter...

Re: OT Tree guy question

#21

PA state law...

David Weaver

you can trim any part of a tree that overhangs your own property without notification or consent of the property owner that said plant/tree/etc grows from.

In this case, the hedges grow in my fence (which as is usually, is a couple of feet inside the property line to avoid issues with who owns the fence) and the branches grow toward my side to seek sun. If some of them overhung the adjacent property, I wouldn't be at all offended if every bit of them was cut, even if the effort was, shall we say, a bit aggressive.

The background is that Dippy in this case had four bushes of his own (large ones) next to the fence, which someone probably planted for additional privacy. He was apparently looking for a leaf free yard, which is a tough find here where any unoccupied area is hilly forest and you will find the odd January day where your leaf free property sees a big wind and every low area is filled with leaves.

I guess he was motivated as he removed every shrub and tree on his property and he was looking to extend his reach, and he probably hadn't considered that the fence was not the property line. He stated to my wife (who also would like a lawn that looks like a carpet and thinks trees are dirty - sometimes -I think she'd have a different idea if she wasn't able to sit under them) that it would be nice to get rid of everything, and she suggested I should be conciliatory and if he didn't like the hedges, that he could cut them out. Coming from a rural area, I mentioned to her that the real issue here is that I don't want to sit in my back yard and stare at him all day, or have his dog barking at us from its yard (which was common), and that the privacy was important, but also that we'd have a strange looking rose of sharon hedge on two sides and a bare fence in the back.

So, that's the whole story.

I'm kind of a rule follower when it comes to local or state rules - follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, lobby to get the rules changed in a transparent way - maybe others will agree. My maple tree grows over my neighbor's house. It's technically his responsibility to deal with the limbs, but since it's my tree, I would pay to have it done. He doesn't want it addressed as it shades part of his deck, so we're in a happy medium.

Dippy since moved away to a new community where there are no trees, so I think he's happy until the planted trees grow. My maple sharing neighbor isn't a fan of his because of the twice a day gas leaf blower in the summer, and the fact that at one point, he got upset with someone who cut him out of a plastering job and he swore on the phone. The hedge cutting savant called the police who arrived and informed him that they received complaints about someone "swearing all the time and possibly drunk". This is inaccurate, but I guess if you're looking to get the police out, you do what you need to do? They left as soon as they came, but it sort of set the tone.

I'm in your boat - the real point was that I like the hedge and don't want it cut. And it's mine. IF the neighbor had that big of an issue with the leaves, I"d have gone so far as to offer to remove them from his property when they fell, because...well, they're from my bushes and it's not that difficult. The point of the letter is less starting a legal process (and would've come from me and not an attorney), but to avoid the entire situation that could follow - it would establish that he was aware in writing that the ROS wasn't on his property and hopefully avoid any cutting. If he didn't like that, then there's nothing I can really do about that, but I do not agree with ever involving courts and police where they are not necessary. I guess they are sometimes needed, but I'm descended from PA germans and we generally try to solve things by compromising as individuals.

If I were going to cut limbs on a tree that overhung my property, I am not obligated to tell anyone, but I would do it anyway, and would also avoid making someone else an imbalanced tree.

I guess this topic sets me off a bit because my wife described the situation as the hedge savant considering cutting the hedge the day he was finishing his other bushes. He was just an odd guy to me - I'm sure I'm odd to some people, but I do tend to have a stubborn reaction when someone comes along with "that's what the law is, but we're doing something different here and I'm going to tell you what it is". I have a feeling that dippy on the other hand didn't even think about it and figured that if something so much as caused him to lift a finger, he had the right to remove it, and like many first owners probably think, he probably assumed the fence was right on the property line. We've got a much better neighbor now. Poor guy is from Turkey and when he first moved there, he had 10 different fertilizers and chemicals that the prior owner told him he'd have to buy. It must've been $1000 worth of stuff that he bought for a fraction of an acre. He (new guy) just wanted to know how often he should mow his lawn and why it was growing so fast, and he opened his shed door and said "I've been reading on the internet, and the guy I bought the house from gave me this list and said I needed to use all of these on the lawn, but I can't find anything on the internet that says the same thing. he said that the lawn would probably die without them". The shed shelf looked like a store display of bagged lawn treatments :\

A little bit less commercial agriculture on the lawn for the neighbor and he isn't fighting a stalling lawn mower now. And he doesn't want to cut my hedges and thinks the idea that they create too much work is ridiculous. it all turned out well. He doesn't call the police, either.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#22

Tree Law *LINK*

Tom Dunlap

Like a lot of things there is a lot of mythology connected to property line trees.

Before doing an y cutting or neighbor contacting about property line encroachments you'd do well to read The Book.

I've heard Victor speak at several arbo conferences. By his admittance he's made a LOT of money dealing with this issue.

Do your homework first.


The Law of Trees

Re: OT Tree guy question

#23

Red Oaks and Ants here

Mike L

I live in TN now and have several very large Red Oaks around my property. Last March a Straight Wind came though in the middle of the night and the only Red Oak I liked decided to fall on my garage. A few others along with Swamp Maples (not sure the correct name) fell as well. Durning the clean up I walked over to the stump and found the entire center eaten away. I asked the person cutting up the tree and taken it off my garage wet cause that.

He walked around the stump pointed to a small hole at ground level and said ants. I have looked at the rest of the trees and found two more with the same hole at the base. I am pretty sure they are rotted on the inside, but the out side looks normal except the hole. One is right on the side of my driveway and starting to mess up the concrete (planted in the wrong place). The other is in the center of the yard and the only thing it might hit if it decides to fall is the driveway.

After the storm I went ahead and took out every tree that could fall on my house. I have replanted smaller trees in place of them.

I love the big oaks and maples because of the shade in the summer, cleaning up after them in the fall not so much. I planted a Red Maple in the center of the yard to make sure it would not interfere with anything when it grew up.

Re: OT Tree guy question

#24

not intended...

David Weaver

for other people. The law i stated in PA is clear.

you can trim branches that wander over your property line. You can't go to a neighbor's property to do it, though, which means if your neighbor has a leaner that's not leaning on to your property but you're afraid it might fall, the next move is to discuss with the neighbor and if that provides no resolution to go to local authorities for assistance.

If there are additional rules at the local level, they may allow you to request assistance (e.g., height of hedges, etc). I've seen conflicts before where there's a hedge height limit and a neighbor who doesn't own the hedge thinks they won't get in trouble for trimming a hedge if they trim it only to the height limitation. This would seem a bad idea.

The hedge savant in my case would've been welcome to trim off anything that hung over his property - with or without my permission. That's the law here and I have a distaste for people who think they're entitled to law+.

Separately, my grandfather had a fencerow in a field and a neighbor had a huge leaner in his pasture. I'm not sure what the virtue of the tree was to the neighbor as the entire thing leaned right over the fence (and not back over his cows for shade). My grandfather cut the main stem where it crossed over the fence, and the neighbor was irate (none of this was close to a house). I'm fairly sure the dispute over the whole thing was two-fold. my grandfather hated having a leaner hitting his equipment and shading crops, and the neighbor liked having a tree that agitated the neighbor so he stuck to demanding that it be left alone.

Once it was cut, nothing came of it except for continuance of two grouchy neighbors.....and a dead cow loafed over the fence a year later and covered in poo.

https://www.timesonline.com/news/20180803/ask-attorney-bernie-trees-often-cause-conflict-between-neighbors

Re: OT Tree guy question

#25

Try The Liberry

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Amazon no gotz

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.