Boric Acid ? for those who know Chemistry

Re: Boric Acid  ? for those who know Chemistry

JL

Not quite the same chemical.

20 mule team is disodium tetra borate

Timbor and Bora-care are disodium octa borate

The roach powder is boric acid- at least the one I bought.

Boron Chemistry

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Boron chemistry is boggling complex. The good news is that any of the things you can buy that contain boron will prevent the bugs from digesting cellulose and that deficiency kills them. So, what is so special about the wood treatment form of boron? In a word, solubility. The other boron chemicals are not very soluble. Hence, a manufacturer can not make a concentrated solution to ship and be diluted by the customer.

I have no idea the purpose of the glycol. Maybe it enhances penetration.

It is easy (for a chemist) to make the soluble form from the right combination of borax and boric acid and a bit of "cooking". That is how I avoid the expense of buying the timber treatment stuff.

The soluble form is sold for agriculture use. You might find it at some ag supplier if there is soil boron deficiency in your area. Apples need it but you are not in apple country.

Spray your wood with a persistent insecticide instead of boron. Stuff for termites and ants will probably work.

Re: Boron Chemistry  Thanks

Barry Irby

They (Nissus) claim the glycol will carry the borate into the center of a 12" by 12" beam IIRC. I have seen other information that indicates the glycol alone will discourage insects.

The BoraCare (glycol and borate) was the development that put and end to having to tent and gas houses for powder post beetles.

The stuff was effective enough to penetrate deeply enough to kill severe infestations. When I was doing Home Inspections I routinely found PPB infestations in certain parts of town. I told people that if your termite guy did not report them, he missed them and get a better termite guy. In fact some companies removed them from their contracts. We had Termite Companies, Wood Destroying Insect Companies, and Wood

destroying Organism Companies. The first one ONLY reported on Termites, ignoring PPB's, Carpenter Ants and Bees, and Fungi. The Second ignored fungi and the last group reported on all of them. Their were some really bummed out people that discovered they had thousands in damage from PPB's and maybe $20K in rot.

I will get some more Boracare. Probably not the time to cheap out.

Re: Boron Chemistry  Thanks

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Why do you want glycol in the lumber after you plane it? Seems for the purpose of treating hardwood that a surface treatment is sufficient and most desirable.

If the glycol is ethylene or propylene glycol it will evaporate over time. Penetration to a beam center is unlikely.

You have hit on the underlying question....

Barry Irby

For floor joists, I liked the glycol and the idea that it might combine with the borate for a sort of two part poison and as a penetrant. And, experience showed that it worked, was harmless to the occupants of the house and odorless.

For lumber I m going to make furniture out of, I am skeptical. I don't want the poisonous kind of glycol around me or my pets. And I have no idea what the effect is on the chemistry of woodworking. Does either the glycol or borate have an effect on gluing things? How about on the finish?

OTOH, I have the remnants of a pile of white oak and the sap wood has been chewed up pretty badly. I am concerned the bugs will move on to my other lumber even if it is less tasty.

I believe I will get some TimBor, the powdered version, and use that. My understanding is it leaves a white residue on the surface and does not penetrate far into the wood, but basically kills the insects on the way in or way out. I'm thinking the milling/stock prep part will eliminate it and it is relatively harmless to humans.

I appreciate any help on this.

Re: You have hit on the underlying question....

John in NM

Ok, now I see. The question wasn't clear before.

Powdered boric acid is all you need for that. You can dust it off before using the lumber, it's harmless to humans - only toxic in the kind of quantities in which table salt is similarly toxic. Roach powder is the easiest available source, but it is often mixed with a colorant for some reason. Stuff I used was blue and you may not want that on your lumber. You can probably get the pure white version from a chemical supplier if you look around some.

Powdered Timbor is likely the same stuff, maybe it's reasonably priced enough to just use.

I wouldn't use straight borax, it's probably less effective as an insecticide though it does also work.

Re: You have hit on the underlying question....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I expect borate will crosslink yellow glue and destroy it. Someone might try the experiment.

not what I would do

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Sprinkle powder on your thousands of bdft of lumber? am not imagining that going well.

Much better to spray insecticide or the soluble borate solution in water.

yes....

John in NM

Wikipedia says that mixing borax and PVA glue is how you make that slime goop that was a toy item I remember from the 1970's

Re: not what I would do

Barry Irby

The Timbor is mixed in water and sprayed on. I think.

What insecticide would you use?

And yes, Borax will turn PVA into snot.

Re: not what I would do

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

What insecticide would you use?

you are on your own to determine what you think safe and effective. It needs to be a persistent insecticide to provide long term protection.

I am confused on the commercial boron product. The discussion was about glycol as the solvent and then you say the material is diluted in water.

The borate may chemically react with glycols, I foggily recall. Unsure why such a reaction would be beneficial but it must be or it would not be used.

Re: not what I would do

Barry Irby

If you are treating rotting or insect damaged lumber you dilute the product with 50% Water. 50/50. Coming out of the container it is as thick as Karo syrup, or thicker. You could never get it through a pump sprayer. If you want to protect lumber from future infestation you dilute it 4(?) to 1 and spray so the surface is barely wet/does not run off. IIRC you get five gallons from one gallon.