Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Paul Leuba

That last phrase should read: “. . extending the setting time.”

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Larry Edinger

Contact Titebond ! Why not use Titebond Extended ?

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Jack Guzman from Maine

I use mostly Patrick Edwards Liquid hide glue for my windsor chairs. I find that the situation you describe happens more when the shop is cooler in winter. The glue stiffens at temps less than 70. I installed a heater in my chair room and things got better. Before that I would heat all the parts in the kiln before starting assembly.Adding warm glue to a cold piece of wood tends to start it stiffening. Every time I do a final glue-up it is a race against setting glue. Some chairs worse than others. You can always use white glue but I never do because it is harder down the road if repairs are ever needed

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

William Duffield

Liquid hide glue already has urea or salt added. That's what makes it liquid at room temperature. Adding more will probably just weaken the glue joint instead of increasing the open time.

IIRC, TiteBond Extend is basically TiteBond II (Bill Tindall will set me straight if I'm wrong). You would find it to be much more difficult than hide glue to get it to release if repairs are ever needed.

I don't know the difference in open time between TiteBond LHG and Old Brown Glue. I haven't done the necessary experiments, so I can't help you there. I would follow Jack's advise, to keep the glue and the chair components warm before and during assembly. When I use OBG, I put it in my shirt pocket, or even in my glue pot, for at least a half hour before I intend to use it.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have not faced your specific gluing challenge. But I have assembled case pieces with many more M&T joints than you are contending with so I am familiar with the generic problem.

1. Employ a helper to spread glue. My wife always assists applying liquid hide to dovetailed drawers or case pieces assembled with M&T and dovetails.

2. Spare no effort at organization. Study the process and take out any seconds that you can from the process. In my case it is optimizing the glue application device (brush/spatula...) , employing a glue container holder that makes retrieval of the glue by the application device efficient, have parts laid out orderly, etc.

3. Warm glue applied to both surfaces.

Unsure you can use the following.....It is a fundamental polymer property of the glue that it will acquire substantial impact strength well before it achieves much shear strength. In consequence, a joint that can not be bashed together will flow together effortlessly with steady clamp pressure.

4. The most useful thing I learned working in the Headley shop was proper M&T and dovetail fit. If it does dry fit together with hand pressure, adjust the joint.

Don't add stuff to the glue. It will alter its strength.

BTW, you are using the best liquid hide. Franklin glue company does not use urea to make the glue liquid. Urea decomposes over time to make ammonia and ammonia breaks down the protein in hide glue which makes it less strong.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Paul Leuba

Thanks to all for the sage advice.

This morning Franklin’s technical specialist called me back to provide additional information regarding the issue. After asking a few questions regarding moisture content of the component parts and temperature of the shop, chair parts and glue, he advised me to raise the temperature of all three to 75 degrees F. or higher, and wait a while until the three items normalized to this level before beginning the glue up. I have been operating in a 55 - 60 degree F. environment and he advised that this could cause premature gelling of the liquid hide glue. I’m very impressed with the customer service from Franklin.

This advice is consistent with the advice on this forum, and I’m going to go with it. I am reluctant to abandon liquid hide glue in favor of the other Titebond varieties because of the need to disassemble a piece in the event a repair is needed.

That’s not an uncommon occurence with a chair.

Also, Bill’s input on preparation and discipline during the glue-up is well received.

Thanks much for the assistance.

Paul in Hunt Valley, MD

Other Titebond is not a solution

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

You are working at a temperature that some of the aliphatic resin Titebond formulations will utterly fail. They will fail to coalesce, call "chalking", because of the white powdery form the dried adhesive becomes. All these adhesives have a minimum working temperature, to be found in the technical data sheets for each glue.

Also, in my experience the liquid hide has the longest working time and less quick to seize than any Titebond product.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

GolfSteve in Calgary

Try Fish Glue (from Lee Valley). Has long open time, doesn't gel at low temperature like liquid hide glue does, and seems to set harder and not leave a gummy residue. I think it's a better all-round choice.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Paul Leuba

Thanks, Steve. I’ll look into that. I believe fish glue is also some type of protein based glue like hide glue.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Paul Leuba

The Lee Valley specs on the fish glue indicates 60 to 90 minutes of open time. That’s pretty amazing.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Suggest you look into why it is not a common wood glue before risking a chair with it. There are plenty of fish to be had. It isn't the rareness of fish that restricts its use.

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

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Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

Paul Leuba

It has been mild in MD the last few days, so, I set the shop temperature up to 80 degrees. With the shop at this balmy level I assembled the back bow and spindles of the sack back Windsor this morning with no trouble. Things went smoothly with the viscosity of the liquid hide glue staying well within working tolerances for the several minutes, maybe 5-6, it took to complete the assembly.

Next steps are to trim the through tenons, perform final hand sanding, mount the rockers and finish with wipe on poly.

Thanks all for the advice.

Paul in Hunt Valley, MD

Re: Liquid Hide Glue Working Time

TomD

"3. Warm glue applied to both surfaces.

Unsure you can use the following.....It is a fundamental polymer property of the glue that it will acquire substantial impact strength well before it achieves much shear strength. In consequence, a joint that can not be bashed together will flow together effortlessly with steady clamp pressure."

May not be the same phenomenon, but most glues are pretty good at failing due to creep, long after they set. T1 is highly prized, as are hide glue, epoxy, and some others, for not failing readily due to creep. This is a failure mode in things like classical guitar bridges, and a lot of boatbuilding, and similar structural designs that all have high rigging loads.

For some reason, a lot of glues for general woodworking are highly prized for their early grab. The old white glues that have been mostly replaced by yellow glues were generally preferable, though they all have their problems.