I just ordered a diamond plate.....

Even money - they're the same product.

Jim Matthews

In the aught a tennis buddy showed how quickly Mainland Chinese companies sold bootleg copies if liscenced products into Western markets.

It's industrial piracy on a massive scale.

Re: Even money - they're the same product.

Barry Irby

I was watching a you-tuber and he commented he got a diamond plate from the company that made them for Trend. It was sold as a Second at a dramatically reduced price. Said whatever it was that made it a second, he couldn't see it. Several viewers asked for the details and how to buy one, but he did not respond.

My friend who deals with the Chinese said if it was the same size and grit it was likely to be Identical and probably right out fo the same factory.

We will see. (Alli-babba sure made the ordering process a PITA, Almost gave up.)

Seconds

Yonak

A friend of mine built machinery for four lines of socks (footwear) manufacture. All four lines were identical except one line had a sign that said "Seconds" and were sold that way. All were identical.

What's the point of that?

Tim Greif - West of Chicago

I don't understand that business model. Why make identical stuff and sell as seconds?

Re: I just ordered a diamond plate.....

jessecloud

In the early days of the pandemic, I order toilet tissue from China via Amazon. Used the same logic you did - cool if it comes but not a big risk if it doesn't.

Waited 6 weeks, had pretty much given up on it. Instead of the 12 rolls I ordered, they sent only six. But they also enclosed an apology saying China Post had limited size on packages. To make up for it, they included 6 masks - which were a real bonanza at that time.

You never know...

Re: What's the point of that?

Barry Irby

Many years ago there was a local reseller of antique furniture. I talked to them about allowing me to copy and sell reproductions of some of their pieces. They thought about it for about a second and agreed. The idea was that anyone who would buy a high end antique would NOT buy a reproduction. And anyone who would buy a reproduction was not going to buy an antique.

A young woman I know buys and resells knock offs of fashion stuff. Everyone who buys them knows they are knock offs. Same sort of logic. No real competition.

The same sort of logic with Markup versus Turn. Stores that sell high end watches at huge profit per watch, but only sell a few, can not imagine how anyone selling thousands of low end watches for a few pennies profit on each can stay in business. They can not comprehend each other. Markup never meets Turn.

So, the people intentionally making seconds are serving a market they would never have otherwise.

MSRP and back alley pricing

Jim Matthews

It's a way to avoid "dilution" of over priced goods that rely on brand recognition to justify retail values. Chinese milks are notorious for selling the same product without licensing outside the distribution network.

It's industrial piracy.

Re: MSRP and back alley pricing

TomD

The piracy certainly occurs, but it is not clear in a lot of things. When people copy, say, LN, it is not all that clear. Their whole business is set on just making something else that was already made, to the standard it might have originally been made to. A huge boon in it's day, and their goods had a certain trademark to them that has been copied in china. It is really just a trademark thing. I own a lot of LN. The only chinese hand tools that I tend to own are blacksmithed items of original craft.

When companies go and ask for a product like a diamond plate, it is unlikely they transferred a Boeing wing's worth of technology, they probably picked something out of an existing chinese Catalog.

The idea that all the stuff is the same is doubtful. Could be. I knew a guy who had heavy electronics made in China. he had to go over there all the time when they were running his stuff. He would inspect every piece. They were always making harmless substitutions, like switches, and he knew what would hold up and what would not hold up. So they could sell the same product online, and it would be "identical", but the quality control would be different. With a stone, seems as though one could deal with the fallout, but the inverters he was buying could run you, even at chinese prices.

Re: I just ordered a diamond plate.....

AlanWS

Tay Tools had been selling a 400/1000 grit diamond stone for about $25 for some time, but they are now out of stock: https://taytools.com/collections/supplies-sharpening-diamond-sharpening-stones/products/400-1000-grit-diamond-sharpening-stone I don't know how good these are, but suspect they are similar to the inexpensive ones under discussion.

Narrower distributions of diamond particle sizes lead to fast cutting with fewer deep scratches, and there are several ways of attaching diamond grit to surfaces, so diamond stones differ in their behavior and durability. There are reasons some cost more, but unfortunately just because they cost more does not prove it's warranted.

I disagree with the idea that you get what you pay for. However, I would say that you pay for what you get.

What size and grit?

John K Jordan

Barry,

What is the grit size is the diamond plate you ordered? Is a diamond plate the same thing as a diamond hone? With the problems of getting some things from China right now I'm curious as to how long it will take to get.

I bought three from Woodturners Wonders. At that time Rizza sold CBN hones in a variety of grits, 3"x8" I think, double-sided, 1/4" thick steel plates.

CBN on wheels for sharpening lathe tools makes sense but CBN on a honing plate didn't make any sense to me since there is no heat involved to degrade the diamonds. So he special-ordered a set of 3 diamond honing plates for me at reasonable cost. The three diamond hones are double-sided 1/4" thick plates - I think I have 180/220, 350600, 1000/1200 grits. I've used them to sharpen ceramic cutters and carbide.

I see he now offers one diamond hone on his web site, 350/600, 1/4" thick steel plate:

https://woodturnerswonders.com/products/diamond-hones

This is 5.25" x 3.25" - maybe that's the size I got, can't remember.

JKJ

Re: What size and grit?

Barry Irby

I ordered a 70mm by 200mm by 8mm plate, so I think it will be about 3" by 8" by 3/8". They seem a little fluid on the measurements. Supposed to be 400 and 1000 grit. Taking about six weeks for delivery, sometime in early November IIRC.

My friend, the diamond merchant suggested trying the four sided one for Harbor Freight, but I already have that and find it a little too small to be useful for what I want. Each side is about 2" by 6". Seems reasonably well made for the price and it was cheap, so I am not disappointed, just not what I wanted.

What I would really like is one about 8" by 36" so I could just put the blade in a honing guide and drive it from one end to the other without all the faffing, toing and froeing in between. OR perhaps a shop robot I could hand it to and say "Here, sharpen this and while you are at it sharpen everything else, and Oh clean this place up."

The best fixed diamond plate

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

12" Ex-lap fine. Mine is 10 years old and still going strong. It has a high density of the optimum crystal structure diamond. In short order it will refine a hollow ground blade in preparation for the final honing. None of the fixed diamond plates are fine enough to quit at this step.

Equivalent to the fine fixed plate is cast iron plate with 15 micron diamond powder. Blazing fast compared to the fixed diamond plate. The problem here is that some 15 micron diamond will embed in the tool and potentially transfer to a cast iron plate with finer diamond powder, say the 1 micron that I use and which David Weaver has found to provide the best final honing procedure.

Hence, I hollow grind, fine Ez-lap, 1 micron on cast iron. If I need aggressive material removal I will use 15 micron on cast iron, then fine fixed diamond plate to remove any embedded loose diamond, then 1 micron on cast iron.

Missing my point

Tim Greif - West of Chicago

Your responses are geared toward piracy or copying something with a lower cost of production. My argument was on Yonak's point of having four machines making the same thing, and one was simply labeled Seconds. How does that make any sense? There is no difference in input costs to the product, only to the revenue generated.

This would be the equivalent to a restaurant serving the exact same menu to everyone, but having 25% of it's tables get half off the bill. Tell me how you profit from that.

Re: Missing my point

TomD

That part makes sense to me. It is like McD super sizing. It is not the cost of the food that maters, it is making the largest (or in this case the most) sales possible while your fixed costs are pretty much the same either way. In the case of McD, they have the customer in hand, though in the case of the socks it is more about finding new customers.

The part of the story that sounds a little fishy is that the different parallel lines exist, or for that mater that they would bother to mark the production of one line as "seconds", in English no less. But selling 25% of the socks as seconds, even if identical, makes perfect sense. if you can find the market for them.

When I was in retail the big ticket items were sold with a 20% margin, and accessories and such had a 50% margin. I don't know where it stands these days, but one heard rumors that Asian production was sold at a 95% margin. When the costs are so low you can compete with things like seconds.

Maybe the 4th line had the old machines in it, and the product was marginally worse. Just not so bad that it really stood out.

Re: The best fixed diamond plate

Barry Irby

I remember reading about your use of diamond dust. I would like to know more.

I just went to EZ-Laps site and could not find a 12" plate. I am rather hurried as I have to leave but if you could point me to one exactly I would appreciate it.

I direct your attention...

Jim Matthews

"It's a way to avoid "dilution" of over priced goods that rely on brand recognition to justify retail values."

Filson rebranded an overstock of boots as "Matterhorn" and unloaded them at 1/3 the price of their premium line. The reason to do this is to keep revenue at the full MSRP and unload excess stock to cover costs.

The factory probably had a minimum run requirement but the brand holder only had commitments for orders less than this quantity.

No buyer would commit to paying more for the same advertised item if another buyer could get their stock at the lower price.

Re: What's the point of that?

al morgan

Because they sell more socks that way (and make more money). The market is limited for the first's, only so many buyers at the "first" price. They have other buyers (or even the same buyers for firsts) who would buy socks of "lesser quality" at a reduced price....and even sell them in their retail establishments as seconds, but not at "firsts" price...but as second pricing. They maintain the "integrity" of them being seconds by coming off a different manufacturing line than where the "firsts" come from. Manufacturer sells more socks, some at a "first price" some at a second price...and makes more money. Buyers get "firsts" quality and pay a higher price for the quality, buyers get second quality at a lower price....everyone happy.