Questions on fuming

Re: Questions on fuming

Clifton C

I bought mine from a drafting/blue print supply house years ago. I'm not sure you can buy it anymore but that's at least a place to start. This stuff is 29.4% comes with all sorts of warnings on the container plus extras in a pamphlet tied to the top... Pretty vicious stuff. Ace Hardware sells 10%, cheap enough, I think I would try that first and just set out more containers, I used plastic plates as containers to give more surface area. Hope that helps...

c

ammonia hazard

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The smell and one's reaction to it is enough to drive anyone away from any hazardous concentration. It will tell you if you are moving toward a harmful concentration. back off.

Anyone that has cleaned out a chicken roosting house will confirm one can survive concentrations that are repulsive. (chickens poop urea which hydrolyzes to ammonia when wet and when isn't chicken poop wet?)

Re: ammonia hazard

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

Cleaned out many chicken houses - should get hazardous pay (I didn't get paid except in chicken dinners).

However the worst shot of ammonia I received was when I was attempting to find a barrel of chemicals in my work's storeroom. I found a barrel with the label hidden by other barrels. So I removed the bung and waved my hand over the hole toward my face (supposed to be the safe way to smell liquids). I got a good whiff of Blueprint developer (29% ammonia in water). I forgot all about finding the original item as I spent several seconds just trying to breath! My throat and nasal area burned for several hours...

Re: Questions on fuming *LINK*

Ellis Walentine

I haven't tried fuming pecan, but any wood with a lot of tannin will darken to some extent. English oak is the best I've used, but American white oak is most commonly used. That said, there are several oak species sold as white oak, and there can be noticeable variation within them.

As for the more concentrated ammonia, you can order the 29% variety online from a blueprint supply house. You definitely don't want to get a good whiff of it though, as it can do a serious number on your lungs.

I have not found that stronger ammonia makes wood darker. After a certain threshold length of time, the surface color reaches a limit, but the depth of penetration increases with additional exposure. Overnight exposure should be sufficient to darken the wood, but it will be fairly superficial, and you'll have to be careful when leveling the raised grain after fuming.

For some more info, here is a link to an article I wrote way back when. I don't know where they got the bio shot. It sure isn't me....

Ellis


Stickley finish

not anhydrous ammonia

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Anhydrous ammonia is just that, ammonia, NH4, without water. Under pressure it is a liquid, but at atmospheric pressure it is a gas. Not safe for a novice to handle. Farmers inject it into corn rows to provide nitrogen fertilizer. When dissolved in water it is sold as a per percentage, 5%, 10% etc.

The concentration above the solution is approximately proportional to the concentration in the liquid solution. Increasing temperature will also increase the concentration above the solution.

One can make an impressive concentration in a "tent" by adding sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide to ammonium nitrate, available as fertilizer at the Coop. Probably not a good thing to try though. Some knowledge of the ratios is important.

Re: Questions on fuming

Dave Bair

Household ammonia will work fine, you just need to refresh it every day. Try placing several shallow dishes under the tent instead of just one. It will take several days to max-out the color. The warmer the temperature, the faster the fuming will proceed.

Re: Questions on fuming

walta

Yesterday while watching the American Association of Woodturners virtual symposium Mike Mahoney was showing his fumed white oak done in a trash can with household ammonia it looked great.

Mike said he could not get stronger ammonia without a license but he is in California.

Years ago I bought some blueprint ammonia it did not seem to work differently from the household stuff. A gave up maybe it was the wood the ammonia or me I will never know.

Walta

Re: Questions on fuming

Dick Coers

Even white oak sapwood doesn't darken as much as heartwood. I would be surprised that pecan plywood would darken much at all. It's a well known fact that Stickley used a dye to even colors on fumed white oak furniture.

I did that once...

John in NM

Same mistake thinking that a quick wiff would be fine. Like a sock in the nose with a lead hammer!

Re: Questions on fuming

John McGaw

Standard reagent-grade ammonium hydroxide is easily obtainable from numerous sources in virtually every part of the country since it is useful for so many things. A Google search will surely turn up a supplier near you -- every company selling to the laboratory market will have it. Try where to buy ammonium hydroxide near me as the search term for starts.

Please do be super careful with this stuff if you decide to go ahead. I used to develop old-school blueprints with this stuff (manually, not the automatic machines) and it is more nasty than you might imagine. I was using small quantities for my work but to fume a big piece of furniture you will be using enough to be literally deadly if you aren't careful.

Re: not anhydrous ammonia

John McGaw

Anhydrous ammonia was once (still?) used for bending wood. Apparently, applied to wood in lieu of the safer steaming, it will temporarily reduce even stubborn wood to a semi-spaghetti state. I can't imagine any application of this in the hobby woodworking world and doubt that it is even used in commercial applications because of the dangers involved. I know how bad the 30% liquid can be and can't imagine dealing with 100% gas.

the flawed connection of smell and hazard

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Note that in the testimonies of exposure to ammonia the reaction was recoiling. Were the vapor phosgene, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen cyanide, chlorine, etc. you would have been dead. Instead the offensive reaction to the vapor resulted in safely retreating from a hazardous concentration. Solutions of ammonia are relatively safe because you will retreat from concentrations that are not yet harmful.

I would have no reservations about tenting a desk in the garage and adding dishes of the concentrated solution. I would not do this procedure in the enclosed space of a basement. Good air circulation in the fuming area will keep you safe. If it doesn't smell worse than a chicken house, not problem. Hummmm, maybe that desired patina in classic furniture is the result of chicken house storage some time in the past.

I read about a commercial job in white oak where the building was tented and the whole of the building lobby woodwork fumed (in the days before OSHA of course).

Re: the flawed connection of smell and hazard *LINK*

Sgian Dubh

In the past for fuming large objects, such as a desk or other such cabinet, the least effort and expense for creating an enclosed space has sometimes been to simply go out and hire a trailer for 24 hours. U-Haul in the US seem to do them for as little as ~$15 a day, plus tax I guess, see link. A vehicle with a tow-bar and a nearby U-Haul location are obviously helpful if considering that option, ha, ha. Slainte.


U-Haul

Re: the flawed connection of smell and hazard

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

now there is a novel solution. Ammonia is not corrosive to steel do no harm to the trailer.

What about aluminum?

John in NM

Most U-hauls are aluminum these days.

A novel solution indeed

Re: What about aluminum?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

a solution of ammonia in contact with aluminum will corrode it but not in the time scale of a day of fuming. (will take the shine off in that time)

Lye will dissolve aluminum.

Re: the flawed connection of smell and hazard

Sgian Dubh

Many moons ago an employer I worked for had a box van used for delivering finished furniture and joinery items, and for collecting various materials and the like.

I wasn't involved in the project, but an oak dining table and chairs were fumed in the back of the van over an approximate eighteen or twenty hour period. As I recall, all the furniture was piled up in the back of the van somewhere just after lunchtime, ammonia set about in shallow dishes, and the doors closed up.

The next early to mid-morning the van was opened up and all the furniture taken out ready for the next stage of finishing. There did seem to be a fair amount of screwed up faces, hand wafting and stepping back smartly from the van as doors were opened at the end of the fuming period. When the van was put back to its normal purpose a bit later, the driver did complain about the lingering whiff - I think he may have been exaggerating the ongoing persistent pong of ammonia a bit, but he did as a course of nature, generally liked to grumble as he went about his work.

Anyway, that was one incident of fuming using facilities and equipment already to hand, and in that case it saved hiring a trailer, and required adjusting the van driver's schedule a bit, ha, ha. Slainte.

Speaking of chicken houses,

Keith Newton

Back in the early seventies I raised chickens for a couple of years. Some of the older houses had some oak parts, like the threshold where I went in and out. Not knowing it was the ammonia that turned it, I was hoping to find what species it was. Back then it took about 8 weeks to raise broilers, but I think that has been shortened now. Then there was about 2 weeks before I got the next batch, and by the end of the year, the litter would be about one foot deep, which would require them to be cleaned out and spread onto the hay fields for fertilizer. That took longer than a couple of weeks, and the ammonia was SO HIGH it was really unpleasant to go into the houses especially if the window curtains were up on a sunny day.

If you ever have a really large project that needs fuming and if there were any farms nearby, it might be worth making friends. Most houses would have large doors for cleanup that you could back a trailer in and left overnight.

Ah the memories

Ellis Walentine

Apropos of your post, back in '73, I fumed an entire white oak kitchen that I built. It turned out very nice, although not as dark in color as I would have preferred. Needless to say, the customers had to go away for the weekend while I stank up their whole house. There's an apocryphal tale that floated around in the very early days of Fine Woodworking, contributed by finishing guru, George Frank, about fuming an entire bank, in Paris in the 30s. Maybe someone can find the article. Good fun.

Ellis

Re: Ah the memories

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

it is in his book

Re: Ah the memories

TomD

Why do you say it is not true? Or did you mean something like "extreme".

Adventures in Wood Finishing: 88 Rue de Charonne

Re: Ah the memories

William Duffield

https://www.abebooks.com/Adventures-Wood-Finishing-Rue-Charonne-Woodworking/30663065691/bd