You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

Barry Irby

I have watched many hours of Youtube myself.

I agree with your observations. Their videography skills appear t be as important if not more so than their wood working skills.

It's important to remember there is little or no barrier to entry and no one vets them for either set of skills.

So you have to remember that just because you saw it on YouTube there is no assumption it it is good workmanship or safe or produces a well made, well designed or durable product.

Some of them do not take kindly to any inference they don't know everything, of there might be a better way, or what they are doing is unsafe. If you make a suggestion to one of the Gods, even a kind well intentioned knowledgeable suggestion, you get horribly flamed.

I agree that wood working and craft in general are thriving and YouTube may be a driving force. I have not figured out some of the other sites.

I'd like to know which ones you find worthy. And I find it baffling that some of them have shops that appear to have tens of thousands worth of equipment apparently much of it donated by sponsors. Why anyone would sponsor some of them is beyond me.

A different take on #1

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have been associated with a club for decades. And more lately Forums. (I eschew U-tubes in deference to the risk, though remote, of rising blood pressure leading to a stroke from reaction to content.)

My observation: There are vastly more people entertained by watching woodworking than those watching to learn to make stuff. Videos free for the downloading has greatly broadened the entertainment possibilities and hopelessly confused the learning possibilities. I have concluded from casual observation that it is impossible to learn to make quality furniture from watching U-tubes on a cell phone. The novice will never discover useful techniques from among the bogus.

At least books and magazines have editors, that at least in the past filtered out the unreliable.

While on this philosophical journey I'll comment on a trip to the Louisville Woodcraft. The place is poorly managed. But aside from that, it has many items of no or negative negative benefit to making stuff from wood. These tools and aids must be promoted by someone. That someone does not have gray hair and puts product out the door.

(In the past I have been mislead by unreliable advice. It has wasted money and delayed acquiring the skill to make good stuff. Disclaimer, I overreact to bogus information because I don't like wasting money or time)

So how does one learn how to make furniture, as an example? A mentor, or class with a seasoned woodworker is best and will most rapidly move one up the learning curve. In that regard, we are blessed with a great abundance of classes there were not available when I began (I did have a mentor though).

This Forum is a good venue for learning. There are enough not shy people that know what they are doing to point out flawed information as well as offer reliable alternatives to reliable information.

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

Dick Coers

The local hardwood and tool store is hanging on by the skin of it's teeth. Their open houses used to be so crowded that even distant parking was full. Now they get about 10 guys in the store at a time during those shows. Their lumber pricing makes it so the young wives can buy furniture at IKEA cheaper than the cost of lumber. I know, not the same. Our woodworking club had to eliminate the senior discount as 90% of the club was taking the discount. Used woodworking machinery prices are at an all time low. One of my best friends has refurbished Delta machinery for decades. Used to have a waiting list of buyers. Now has trouble getting any offers and has dropped prices. I just don't see that all time high you mentioned.

I haven't been to the new location of the local maker space. Can't comment on how they are doing for membership.

So maybe it's a regional thing, but this region is in trouble for woodworking!

Agree...

John in NM

Watching is not doing. Watching is easy. Watching a lot gives one the faux expertise to sound important and skilled to the novice watchers.

Even though we occasionally butt heads around here, I have the utmost respect for the abilities and experience of people who clearly DO and then post about it or reply to posts about it. There are many like that on this site, and many of us are grumpy with each other, but we all hang around and keep talking because we keep learning and teaching. Forums are amazing.

The thing that really got me going in terms of the ability to produce was working in a shop when I was between "career" jobs and fancied myself a craftsman. Damn that was hard work! But it makes you FAST! It makes you not fear mistakes - the shop's resident expert made mistakes and didn't worry about the rest of us knowing it.... he sure as hell could recover from them well and he sure didn't mind showing you how to recover from one when you asked. That guy was a fantastic mentor and a genuinely humble and helpful person.

And then there is youtube.... I hate youtube for anything beyond revisiting favorite bits in movies that I don't want to bother sitting through again. Easily 90% of "instructional" vids I've started to watch have some guy turning something over in his hands ad naseum and talking randomly.

I'm sure I've missed a few good ones, but by doing so I've had time to spend in the shop making product.

One I did like a lot, a traditional pro shop with sped up video of the entire build process set to music. No talking, no time wasted. Not a how to at all, but wonderfully inspirational.

And no, I will not refer to "making", "makers", or "makespaces". Too damn millennial said the curmudgeon!

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

David Yoho

It's been very recently that I have gone "down the YouTube rabbit hole". Up until then the only videos I watched were those that turned up in Google searches for repairs to autos and such.

My journey began when I checked some of the recommended videos that show up on the right side of the screen out of curiosity. Most of them I found not to my liking but a few were, in my opinion, good enough to bookmark and follow. What struck me were the ones where the guy or gal talked about quitting their day job to become fulltime YouTubers. I had no idea this platform provided enough income for people to do that. I became curious at that point to understand how. Then a few days ago I checked out a guy my son recommended. One of his videos explained some of the revenue streams and how, in his case, sponsorships controlled too much of his content and his desire to change that in his future offerings.

One guy even shows a video where he closed down his humble garage workshop and setup a new "mega shop" in a building he purchased in town that also housed the local Post Office. I'm thinking - how in the hell does a young fellow afford to do that???

There's a lot of bad information and some good in these things. The problem is a beginner won't know the difference. They see this YouTube "celebrity" saying this or showing that and take it as the gospel. I'm all for something that gets today's young people interested in woodworking but I fear they get so caught up in the fully appointed shops some of these guys have and the babbling of a YT celebrity that they don't know any different.

There are only so many videos you can watch about river tables, shop furniture, or tool choices before it all sounds the same and, to me, gets boring.

Out of the five YouTube sites I frequent, one stands out worth recommending. The guy is a veteran furniture restorer of over 30 years. He made his living running a five-man shop for years before leaving that behind to make his living going solo. He still has a few apprentices in his shop that he teaches but he is the only employee. His videos show an antique that comes into his shop, what's needed to restore it, what and how he accomplishes the work, and the finished piece. I like the way he talks about his thinking of what way he might handle a repair and then seeing what he does. This guy is a master and worth every second of my viewing time. If you're interested, do a search for Thomas Johnson in Gorham, Maine.

A sign of the times

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

David, it is a sign of the times - a product of our increasingly instant society. It is like watching videos instead of reading books, like children playing video games on line instead of pretend games with real friends, like posting a desired online profile/identity on FaceBook. And so on. YouTube is the pretend world that is created to entertain others. And it is so easy to do, so commonly done, and no one questions whether it is real or fantasy, as long as it is entertaining.

It is now so easy to self-promote. Indeed, rewards are there for self-promotion; it is not sufficient to have artistic skills. This will sound very cynical, but from what I have viewed it appears that much of the YT offerings are either grand showmen/women) or really superb craftsmen/women. In between, there are a huge number (the greater majority?) of would-be showmen/women. They lack the skills of both groups, and make up for in in noise, posturing, and recklessness. The problem is that viewing = clicks = advertising Dollars. Many presenters - too many - create enough clicks to earn a sizeable income ... easily in 6 figures. That becomes the pot of gold ... and so you find compilations of interesting snippets of information, all designed to attract clicks.

There are some genuine people on YouTube who are driven to share information and not create income (Dave Weaver comes to mind). There are also credible woodworkers providing a taste of what they can offer commercially (such as:

Doucette and Wolfe Furniture Makers

ISHITANI FURNITURE

Dorian Bracht

Peter Galbert

Sampson Boat Co

These are some I like.

We here look at the offerings with the eyes of practiced woodworkers, and see all the pretenders. We also see, and then rail at, the dangers of advice provided so graphically by the inexperienced or those lacking in basic skills. We also recognise that many will not get this. At one time I wanted to yell out, or leave comments, to this effect. I bite my tongue and move on, hoping that the viewers are divided into three categories: those that are not woodworkers but looking for entertainment and get this; those that are aspiring woodworkers but still learning vicariously - that is, not actually committing themselves to building something; and those with enough common sense to recognise what is workable and what is not.

On a train to Munich

Derek

On a train to Munich

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

the Royal jewel collection was the best thing I saw there-craftsmanship with expensive raw materials!

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

William Duffield

I totally agree with your recommendation of Thomas Johnson Antique Furniture Restoration. I subscribe to his YouTube channel. I've done some furniture restoration, and his practices are spot on, as are his explanations and illustrations of his techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd8v3SbzGP9_wuSOr_xk_eA

Thanks Bill. It is a plan 

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

roger lance

It's a mixed bag.....like two other areas of interest of mine.....sailing and political analysis.....there's a lot of participants and a few that seem to actually know something.

I do find it ironic that someone who just got into woodworking can start making videos, design a "sticker", get sponsored, offer classes, and open a school.....but, it happens.

Without YouTube however, I would never have experienced the craftsmanship displayed in a small one-man shop in Japan.....or felt the sense of reverence that is attached to traditional furniture forms he makes.....and all without a spoken word.....or a sticker to sell.

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

Barry Irby

Gots to be Ishitani....go check him out and say Hi to Shiro.

What's missing here is the Critical Thinking/Observation skills that should be on high alert on YouTube (and Facebook)

I went to and paid for a college education. Even at that tender age I realized some of what I was being taught was poorly thought out and taught by unqualified people. When I complained to my course adviser his response was that "such is life, later you will have unqualified ignorante bosses and you should learn to endure." My answer to that was, "here, I pay you, there they pay me. I don't have to pay for BS."

So as we watch YouTube we should assess the quality of the information and search out the knowledgeable ones that are leading us in the right direction. Realize some are showmen with little to offer and some have much to offer.

I have become fascinated with river tables and want to make one. Have watched many videos on the topic. Some from pros who have dome lots of them and sold them for thousands and some form people doing their first or second. If you watch long enough, you can learn something from many of them. Still haven't done one, but know a lot more than I did and know a number of things not to do. I am much closer to success than I would have been without YouTube.

But, I admit, I find some of the sponsorships to be baffling.

Stickers

David Yoho

I've noticed many of these shops have sticker collections adorning their workspace. It reminds me of collecting baseball cards when I was growing up. I've also noticed some of these folks using their own stickers to cover the name plate of various tools and machinery. I suppose it's either to not support a particular brand or not conflict with a sponsorship in place.

Maybe the one with the most stickers wins. I don't know and certainly don't get it!!

example

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

David Weaver

I think it's probably healthy not to compare yourself to those people. You're trying to do fine work. They're not. Their "fine work" (instead of studying curves and building your mental ability to design and recognize good design) is in navigating youtube's features to maximize subscribers.

Early on, youtube was full of people posting horribly produced content. Some of it was terrible on all fronts, and some was good work that looked like it was filmed through a semi-opaque membrane.

people who had a lifetime of work to share did it maybe all at once (curtis buchanan's chair series comes to mind), and then content creators like wandel and heisz and some of those other folks who build novelty stuff realized that for every 1 person who knows what they're doing, there's 20 more who have no clue and who will continue to watch without skepticism). The latter is the market.

I can spot terrible new makers from a mile away - usually in a garage, making plywood boxes or something and doing an awkward job of trying to present in a way that's structured like you'd find on TV. If they stick around, in two years, some of them have a couple of hundred thousand subscribers and sponsors, and nothing of not made. I already struggle making remotely acceptable things, so the idea of ever spending endless hours immersed in view metrics and the latest and greatest editing software for five hours a night, rushing to get up another video about a plywood planter made with the sponsor's tools....no thanks.

Bill is right about there also being a huge market of people who like to watch others work and never make anything. Underhill's show on PBS went for eons as a novelty, I'd bet, with all but a very small percentage of viewers. I watched it as a kid (and never knew I'd do any woodworking). My dad watched it (my mother paints things for income - kitsch - my dad is involved in prep of some of that, but would never need to watch the woodwright's shop) along with me, often.

Point being, youtube started out early on as an arena with ideas being more important than production. that was the draw. Now, youtubers have realized that it's more profitable to use youtube to draw views and make money with advertisers and "reviews", without the proper legal disclosure that they're just paid promotion, and those old days are effectively over.

If you make poorly produced videos (all the way down to just turning on a cell phone camera and uploading the video without any editing), but you don't move the camera around and make someone sick, and you know what you're talking about, you'll gain an audience that may be small, but it will be interested. I think it's worth doing if you've got techniques to share. It will take you some time, but not much, and you'll have to swallow your ego. I wanted to document how double iron planes were likely made a few centuries ago since it's not in print, and i made rambling horrible videos. But I know what I'm talking about relative to the planes, and the odd comment shows up once a week or so "get on with it, better production, this could've been 3 minutes instead of 30", but it's less than you'd think.

But the platform as a whole? It's an advertising mechanism now, just like everything else became over time.

I haven't made one of those yet.

How to spot someone between major projects

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

They reset by watching videos....... ...or other distractions

In my case I've got through it (corner cupboard) and recently launched into building two bed side dressers for granddaughters. Lumber selected, case parts cut, dovetails started. I had a helper

It's hard to know where to jump in here

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I watch YouTube videos, but almost no woodworking ones. The ones I follow are in metalsmithing, like Abom79 or ToT or Keith Rucker or Frank Howarth (admittedly woodworking but I like his projects). There is one guy in Montana who makes traditional horse-drawn wagons (Engels Coach Shop), and those videos are really good. Clickspring is in another category all by himself. He has serious metalworking skills and produces videos of exceptional quality.

I have vastly enjoyed Ishitani and Curt Buchanan and have learned vast amounts from Buchanan, especially. Ishitani seems to me what a video from James Krenov would be. Some of the Japanese videos display jaw-dropping skills that I likely don't have time left on this earth to learn. But they're inspirational anyway.

If I want to learn how to do some woodworking skill I don't have, I come here or to the woodworking subforum of OWWM. Very few of the woodworking videos I've seen come close to the skills and workmanship displayed here, and I get very frustrated by the mistakes displayed. So, I guess, if I want to learn, I go to a good forum. If I want to be entertained, I can watch someone else's mistakes, but I don't confuse the two categories.

Another Thing...

David Yoho

One other thing I would add to this thread is my observation of responses to some of the various videos I've seen. Sometimes I scroll down to look at comments made by folks. Based on the little photo that appears with the viewer's name and their comments, it leads me to believe too many times they are made by people who are just killing time amusing themselves and wouldn't know one end of a hammer from the other.

Re: You Tube Woodworker Observations.....

Roy

I watch Youtube videos some. There are so many it's hard to winnow out the worthwhile ones. When I started messing around with woodworking I found James Krenov's books and read them. His philosophy is what most hobbyist woodworkers follow in that they enjoy what they are doing and try to do their best. I am not perfect at dovetails but I can do them when appropriate. I use power tools as they seem the best fit but also have a whole bunch of chisels for use. When i started I had a Sears tablesaw, a 3/8" drill and a Makita pad sander. With that I made my dining table (that I still use) and sweat quite a bit during the ordeal. I might have picked up a Craftsman hand plane to do the edges of the boards.

Is it on your to-do list?

Re: Stickers

David Weaver

I don't know if it's always true for woodworking, but there was a period where a lot of youtubers had stickers made and sold them directly for extra income.

(pre-patreon). I'm sure it's still done, but maybe they figured like the old race track fences that they could put up stickers for things they like or channels they kind of had a buddy system with and promote each other.

There's a reviewer of fine watches (i won't mention his name - he's beyond profane) who sells sticker space behind him (he does this actively, it's not a guess- his terms are in the summary section of his videos). It's almost hilarious - he says horrible things and then behind his head on his fridge are stickers like "book the dublin clown" or "travel to maine!".

People more or less pay him to insult their watch collections.