Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

John in NM

I use Japanese chisels/bits that I get at Woodworkers Source in Albuquerque (they do mail order too)... Lee Valley also sells them as sets, but I buy them locally because they sell the two parts individually and I have broken the bit before (lots of endgrain mortises, hard on bits).

I've heard that Fisch made good bits, but I don't think they are easy to find now.

Then there are also what are called English pattern bits, like those made by Clico. I think they cut a flatter hole and may not clog as bad since its a two flute bit. I have some old versions of those that I bought to try out and not used often, since most of my woodworking time is taken up making pistol grips. I wasn't too impressed the time I used one mortising incense cedar, but that stuff is so soft and punky that it wasn't a good test.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

TomD

If they are burning up, that is usually that they are not set up correctly. Normally it is the drill is too tight. Back when I showed my trick for getting perfect square holes, I remember you were unhappy because your were not getting square holes, due to drill run out. If in order to minimize run out you are placing the drill too high, then you will get burning. Other than my trick. I don't know of a way to eliminate side cut, though I don't see it as being a huge problem, though why do a crappy job if one doesn't have to. I have two machines so the set up to do perfect squares is not a problem for me.

There are a lot of machines that cut mortises, for those who want holes that are square, and don't want to use Hollow chisels. But they are all expensive.

I got my drills from Canada's version Of Grizzly, like 30 years ago. Cheap, but they have worked great. When I got my floor based machine I had the option of getting up to 1" chisels. So I bought one. I think I got it from LV, though I don't remember it costing 100 bucks. But I'm in Canada, 10 miles from LV, so I can't think where else I would have got it.

LV even has a cheap chisel that has a HSS auger. But the chisels shouldn't need to be high speed steel if they are set up properly.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Don Stephan

My 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 sets are Delta, in part because I could buy an additional bit. The 3/4 and 1 sets I think are Fisch.

I use a "cone"(?) sharpener from Lee Valley as needed on the bottom of the chisel, and sharpen the cutting edge of the bit as needed, probably with an auger file but can't remember for sure.

Richard Jones told me to use a gold guinea to space the hollow chisel and then mail the used coin to him, but I couldn't find guinea coins locally only guinea hens.

I think now I use a dime to space the 1/4 and 3/8 chisels, a quarter to space the 1/2 chisel, and a nickel for the 3/4 and 1 chisels.

The coin goes on top of the chisel when it is pushed up against the housing and the retaining screw tightened. Then the bit is pushed up tight against the bottom of the chisel and the chuck tightened. Finally, the chisel retaining screw loosened, the chisel pushed up tight against the housing and the retaining screw tightened. This process leaves a slight gap between the bit and the bottom of the hollow chisel and eliminated burning for me.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Barry Irby

My chisels ar Delta. I bought them about fifty years ago to use with the adapter on my drill press. They got very little use. Recently I bought a benchtop hollow chisel mortiser at an auction, a Grizzly and it only came with one chisel. I bought an adapter to allow me to use my Delta chisels in that machine.

The end result of all that babble is I like both the Delta chisels and the Grizzly.

Two things are important and both have already been mentioned. Get the tools for sharpening the chisels and the bit and really tune them up. I get much better results if the chisel is REALLY sharp. And the trick with the dime above the chisel and then removing it to create the space is the way to do it. Also, rub the bit down with parrafin before you install it. Rotational speed should be medium to high if it's adjustable.

I have a long time friend who has used a lot more bits than most of us and I believe he likes the Grizzly ones as a good value. Trade off between cost and precision. I will ask him.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Sgian Dubh

"Richard Jones told me to use a gold guinea to space the hollow chisel and then mail the used coin to him, but I couldn't find guinea coins locally only guinea hens."

I've long wondered why my excellent guidance (priceless really) to you Don has been so poorly rewarded, although I could find it my heart to accept dimes, nickels and quarters if that's all you can find for the job.

Interestingly, in an unrelated incident, just this week someone contacted me via an article on my website about wood finishing techniques, something similar to an item photographed and described, but with distinct differences really needing some testing on my part to ensure success. I replied with some general advice about the sort of approach that could be taken, and said that if their need went beyond the enclosed generalities I'd prefer to do so on a paid consultancy basis. They asked how much, and with this information to hand they came back and told me they hadn't got enough in their budget to pay.

Fair enough, I thought. End of story. However, the follow up was, "describe in detail please your methodology and materials, and where to buy said materials, etc."

I'm currently pondering how to give this rather cheeky request the 'kiss-off'. Should I help them out anyway, giving away my hard earned knowledge for nothing, blow them off either rudely or gently, or just fire their email into the Deleted email folder(?), ha, ha. Slainte.

client recommendation

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I would provide information that upon implementation would reveal that they have gotten what they "paid" for.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

Bill, I have a Fisch benchtop Mortiser - works quite well for my purposes. I have a full set of the Fisch bits that also work well. I do sharpen the chisels occasionally and lube the bit and chisels before and during use.

The bits are a little expensive (I didn't look for cheaper prices but found these on Amazon)

https://www.amazon.com/Fisch-Hollow-Mortise-Chisel-Set/dp/B005HVKVHY

The sharpening tools are shown at the bottom of the same page.

The lube i use is in a spray can, (https://www.amazon.com/Bostik-BladeCote-formerly-DriCote-10-75-x/dp/B00DSW7DWK)

I spray the inside of the chisel and the outside tip of the bit before installing, and occasionally during use to prevent heat buildup. - I use the "dime" setup method also. I have the same set I have used for years cutting a few hundred mortises, and they are still in great shape.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

John in NM

I think just ignoring the request is what I would do. If they have no manners they can just get used to being blown off.

Discussion on a machining forum *LINK*

John in NM

You might enjoy the thread in this link. Has pictures of some testing of the Nakahashi tools, and a link to a pdf of testing Nakahashi vs others.


https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/woodworking-and-woodworking-machinery/hollow-chisel-new-tooling-japan-290348/

that was confusing!

It is a little....

John in NM

I think the reason is that neither type of chisel/bit really performs better than the other, yet people still have their preferences. I didn't look at that pdf very closely, I just remembered reading the thread ~5 years ago when I was looking for good hollow chisel sets.

I have a couple 1/2" sets I bought on ebay back then, one Star-M and one old Craftsman of the English pattern. Both used, neither have been tuned up, but I just cut a few mortises in various woods with them and sawed those pieces in half. I'm afraid I left my camera at work, so I can't provide pics until Monday.

I really do find the two styles about equivalent. I think the English style is less "squeaky" but hard to say based on one example to test. English style looks a little cleaner cutting to me, which makes some sense as it seems to be a less aggressive bit. That too could just be the individual bit I have on hand.

Although Clico is gone, I just noticed that Forrest City still sells this style of hollow chisel set.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Bob Lang

Before you spring for new chisels and bits sharpen the ones you have. Get one of the diamond cones for the insides and use sandpaper on a flat surface for the outsides. The most common cause of burning isn't a dull chisel it's having too little clearance between the chisel and bit. Here is a link to how I sharpen them:

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/hollow-mortise-chisel-tune-up/

When I set the bit I make the gap a little bigger than everyone says to. Who cares is the bottom of the mortise is ragged?

Way back when I tested various brands for a magazine article. This was about 10 years ago for "Woodworking Magazine". At the time there wasn't a significant difference between brands and the high-priced ones weren't worth the extra cost after sharpening the chisels. We found that sharpening even a burned, worn out chisel made a big difference. They don't ever get hot enough to lose their temper, what you see is smoke damage.

If I were to buy a set today I would most likely get one of the $50-$60 sets from Lee Valley.

Bob Lang

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

roger lance

Been using this set since I bought the mortiser many years ago.....

They all need sharpening and proper set-up regardless of brand/price.

Re: Hollow Chisel Mortise Bit recommendation?

Don Stephan

Perhaps you could reply with a copy of your earlier post to acknowledge you received their request and your feelings hadn't changed.

Danged, didn't think you would want used American coins so I've been throwing them in the river. Course, I only set up the mortising machine about once a year . . .

Its been a while since I had a hollow chisel

Keith Newton

So I can't add much, but it seems like I found touching down on a paraffin stick did a good job of lubricating inside with out the risk of making a mess trying to oil.

Clarification- the auger and chip ejection

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Many addressed the issue of proper set-up which is not the information I desired. These bits are designed differently and these differences lead to differences in chip ejection and auger life (in my experience) I have a variety of hollow chisels I used on a drill press machine. My first bit was an expensive Greenlee 3/8". Chips jam in the body and it invariably gets hot from this feature. It sets the low bar for chip ejection. A friend has somewhat different Greenly bits in a large industrial machine and they clear easily. I bought a Delta and it cleared chips well but the 1/4" bit broke at an extraordinarily thin spot.

The cheap looking bits that came with the machine I recently bought jam chips periodically. Things will be going well and then chip ejection stops and the bit heats until I apply more pressure and eject the compacted chips.

Therefore, I was looking for advice from those that use a hollow chisel machine with some regularity, what is the best bit. Sounds like the Japanese bits could be best?

thanks for link?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have not heard of filing the chisel with triangular file. Will try it.

Re: Clarification- the auger and chip ejection

John in NM

I don't sharpen the chisel as often as I probably should, but I do sharpen the auger with a small file often, both the cutting edge and the spur. After filing the inside of the spur, do a dragging roll on a stone to remove the burr on the edge. Bob's article makes me think I should sharpen the chisel more often, I always figured the auger does the bulk of the work so that is where to look to keep the chips small.

Heat is inevitable with these tools if used for more than a few mortises at a time. Just listen to the sound they make, even well set up, there is some steel to steel rubbing of the bit inside that tube. Its going to generate heat and start burning the wood. Keeping the auger sharp reduces the heat generated by the friction of cutting wood, though that is inevitable too if used for any length of time.

That said, the Japanese bits are about as good as I've used. I'm extremely hard on them because I'm typically mortising end grain, and that will clog the bit regardless of setting, so mine get overheated routinely. I have two 9/16" sets, and have only used one. Chisel is still going, but I've replaced the auger about 4 times (for context, I've cut roughly 2000 mortises in 4" of walnut or beech endgrain with those four augers - beech is harder on them). You probably will have to trim the bit to length too. They make them extra long for some of the industrial mortisers that used to be out there.

I would have liked to have found a 9/16" western pattern bit to use for a while, just in the interest of experimentation. Cutting end grain would still be awful, but I think that two flute auger makes for smaller chips. Next time I do a run of grips, I'm going to get the Maka set up for it, so unless something goes horribly wrong, I'm probably done using the hollow chisels so extensively.

Oops... *LINK*

John in NM

That's Woodworker's Supply in Albuquerque. They also have locations in WY and NC.

There used to be a business of the same name in Tucson and Phoenix, they are the ones who changed to Woodworker's Source, either due to conflict with the other business or just to avoid confusion. That was 20 years ago but I still mix them up.

I originally bought these sets from Morris Tool, who are now long gone. Its all the same stuff LV sells, but Woodworkers stocks spare augers, which I find pretty handy so I go there for replacements. The bits tend to need trimming at the top, they make them long due to the vast number of mortisers they might be used in. Its easy enough with a cut off wheel in a grinder or dremel.


https://woodworker.com/14-mortising-chisel-and-bit-set-mssu-123-881.asp

You might also ask about RPMs, and feed rate

Keith Newton

I would bet that as with any power tool, making the proper chip size, allows the heat to be carried out with the chip. I don't know if you have any control over the speed on a dedicated machine, but you would over the feed rate.

Seems like having a TIN coated drill ought to help keep the chips flowing due to better lubricity. Although I couldn't find one on a quick Google search.

One counter-intuitive set-up method.....

roger lance

You are probably aware of this; but, someone here may not be.....and that is to set-up the chisel to eject chips back into the hole you just made.....not set-up to eject chips toward you.

This gives the chisel room to get rid of the chips resulting in less clogging.

Re: client recommendation

Sgian Dubh

"I would provide information that upon implementation would reveal that they have gotten what they "paid" for."

I did do a quick reply. I suspect they're still pretty much in the dark, although the information I've provided would make sense to a knowledgeable and skilled wood finisher … but probably not to someone with little or no knowledge. It took about ten minutes to type up, so not much time lost for me, ha, ha.

Sorry, can't help much with the mortice chisel question, me being based in the UK and not familiar with the chisel sets available to you North Americans. Slainte.

Re: Varaible Speed

TomD

Motor speed would be a biggie. But I have never used a machine that was variable. Therefore if your machine isn't variable it isn't possible for the surface speed of all the augers to be correct. So you will not be in the sweet spot with all your bits. I have particular bits that I prefer to use, and I normally don't change them out if I am doing bigger work. Though I try to stick with bits that will always be supported in the cut. Just seems to work out that most of my work is either mortises in frames, or 1" size stuff in infrequent projects like workbenches, or trestle tables, etc... So I don't really need to run larger bits. The small bits work fine for me.

And just for anyone who has never used these before: Be sure to orient the window so that it empties into the developing mortise, not the wall. I make plunge cuts at either end, finishing with the plunge cut at the window side of the bit. Then I walk back to the other plunge cut. I have never had any problems with heating or burning.

If your bits are really hot, and you can't deal with it. It might be possible to use compressed air to cool the bits or keep them flowing, though at that point I would probably be looking in the mirror.

Re: Varaible Speed

TomD

Gee, I thought I had read to the end of the thread. I was just being repetitive. Still, adding a discussion of Varaible speed hadn't occurred to others.