Corner Cupboard Rev 2

Re: Corner Cupboard Rev 2

Kneale Brownson

Maybe same treatment beneath the lower drawers as beneath the upper?

Re: Corner Cupboard Rev 3

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Table is at risk of crowding this piece if I make it too large. Daughter is getting a sheet of ply cut to set in space to determine optimum size. Other than top being too thick I am beginning to like it.

Re: Corner Cupboard Rev 3

Alan Marchbanks

I like the look except for one thing. To my eye the drawer is to narrow. I know why it is because of the corner back. Perhaps a full width (to outer edge of doors) drawer front with actual drawer width as you show it now. Just a personal thought. I like your work and look forward to your post.

Alan

Re: Corner Cupboard Rev 3

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If I can come up with decoration to go beside the drawer that is what I will do, otherwise two phony flanking drawers. Seeking someone to inlay a flower design or marquetry and apply it.

The drawer may in fact be wider than shown. I suspect it is drawn more dinky that necessary, it was just a guess or holder to show a drawer would be that as demanded by client.

I am about to work out the top/bottom plan full scale and will see what the drawer can do on the full scale drawing.

Will probably just draw on plywood to be used and cut 4 out at a time stacked.

Re: Corner Cupboard Rev 3

Sgian Dubh

Something isn't working that's jarring to my eye. Visually, the whole piece seems uncomfortably squat. It's that, or it's not tall enough. The upper and lower pair of doors are two too many. Bottom rails of the doors need to be wider. The arched top rail of the doors is clumsy, as is the arch of the plinth.

Conclusions. Slim down the whole. Use a single upper and lower door. If you must have a drawer, make the front full width, and angle the drawer sides to match the carcase sides, and incorporate a wooden T moulded type bottom runner or runners to make it run true. As to the cornice moulding and dado level moulding, the jury's out on those for the moment until the 'squatness' and the fussiness of the four doors issues are resolved.

Of course, I'm not really a fan of historically derived, but not really properly signalling nor honouring the source inspiration and forms, and preferring a more contemporary approach and set of design references, so I'm perhaps not the best person for you to pay attention to when it comes to design development and design resolution. Slainte.

resolutiion of function and form

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I hope it sounds like I am delighted with your comments for they provide a opportunity for discussion of a topic dear. I am interested in where professionals come down on the situation I usually face. I most often am building something that fits a space or accommodates some size. The size of the furniture is largely a dependent variable.

If this piece does not fulfill the requirements of its owner the effort to build it will be wasted. Fact to be confronted. Meet the need or reject the request?

It will replace a more narrow corner cupboard because my daughter, hereafter referred to as the client, needs more storage space in a dining area with space constraints. A hutch would ideally suit the need but not fit. Hence, it needs to be as large as the space will enable, 40" being my best width estimate.

She wants to be able to put stuff on the top. This requirement limits the height to about 6'6", matching the soffit of the kitchen cabinets nearby.

I showed her many corner cupboards and hutches and she zeroed in on one with arches.

One door in a case 40" wide is not something I am confident I can build. You can't really be suggesting one door to span this width?

I rarely have the luxury of building something artistically perfectly proportioned to sit isolated in a gallery standing on its merits as a piece of art. Most of the time it has to fit somewhere, or have specified features. Golden means and mathematical progressions rarely lead to something that is practical for the client. A recent chest of drawers was entirely scaled from a specified drawer interior size(large!) and number. The client is ecstatic that his life finally fits perfectly in a chest of drawers...... that is not perfectly proportioned. Should I be ashamed of the effort or be as happy as the client for his happiness?

I have needs to fulfill with this corner cupboard. If the needs lead to squat so be it. A suggestion to make it narrow is not helpful, unless I make a second for a gallery. A suggestion to improve what fits the need is what I am looking for.

Re: resolutiion of function and form

Garthinsandiego

Bill, have you considered decreasing cabinet width and increasing cabinet side depth? Seems it might satisfy height to width proportion without losing any significant interior storage volume. Only loss is small triangles of somewhat unusable shelf space and more blocky cabinet sides. Food for thought.

reply-advantages of custom made

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I am not dissatisfied with the shape, nor was my artist friend, nor the client, nor my artist other daughter. What you suggest has merit for increasing space were it not for the fact that the limited space it goes into does not permit it to stick out any more than it does already. The objective is to fill a corner with as much cabinet as possible with a limit on how far it sticks out. 40" wide by 22" sticky-out was the max. judged optimum.

One of the advantages of custom made furniture is that it can be optimized to be accommodated by where it goes and how it is to be used. Snuggled into its home it will look like it belongs there among its other furniture relatives.

I am satisfied letting the space determine the shape. I would like to make the front appearance as attractive as I can while satisfying the client's whims.

Were it mine it would have bracket feet, raised panel doors and divided glass upper doors. But it's not. "My" corner cupboard would not be at home where this one goes. The client would gladly take it, but why not let the client satisfy her preferences. I had to "hold my nose" while building the night stands for this house. But the owners are delighted with the customized features which they judged more important than style, and enjoy daily.

There is a drawer in this house that I made that has a bullet embedded in the drawer side. When the client saw it in the rough lumber he had to have it incorporated into his chest of drawers. It gets showed to visitors. Fine by me. I like to make family happy and they think I am the best.

Re: reply-advantages of custom made

Garthinsandiego

Bill - Was not suggesting that the cabinet face protrude further into the room. Rather that the face remain in the same plane as you plan, but that the width be trimmed to make it less blocky from the front as suggested by others. The result is a more narrow cabinet, but one where the sides become deeper. That may or may not be acceptable to you and your client. Just pointing out that the loss of storage is minimal yet there may be some gain in achieving a more pleasant ratio between height and width.

Re: reply-advantages of custom made

David Yoho

Bill, I totally understand and agree with your points regarding custom made furniture. I made most of my works for customers that knew what they wanted and how it needed to fit their needs. You'll never see any of my furniture in magazines or museums but to the owners they are loved as much and used daily.

The reason I built most of what I did was because my clients wanted something they couldn't find anywhere. It either needed to fit a specific space or use. Sometimes they left the way it looked to me and sometimes they had specific instructions. In the end it was they who were paying and therefore had to be 100% satisfied.

To me, your latest revision looks good. Make any small tweaks you think necessary and get going.

Revisions

Ellis Walentine

I think your latest revision is better, Bill. I also agree that the customer is the most important consideration in any furniture design. After all, it is their functional requirement that motivates the build, but I don't agree that you need to sacrifice proportion, composition and decoration in order to satisfy the functional aspect. I think design is the practice of solving all variables simultaneously -- function, aesthetics, cost and engineering.

If I can weigh in on a few lingering aesthetic concerns, I would say, generally, that I prefer a more spartan, vernacular design, more in keeping with original examples of this type of cabinet. But, that's just my preference and needn't be yours. I lived with an original Chester County corner cupboard for half a century and am used to that particular, unadorned look, with simple, elemental moldings and proportions that balance function and delicacy. The departures you are suggesting, particularly with the emphatic moldings, conflict with my mind's eye of what this piece should look like...but that's not bad. It's just an observation based on my biases. The corner cupboard definitely morphed beyond its original roots, and your choice of ornamentation should meet your own preferences and the surroundings in which the cabinet will find itself, at your daughter's home.

Individually and culturally, we are subconsciously aware of and biased by proportions and details that we have become accustomed to. In furniture design, when we mix and match motifs and features -- or tweak proportions -- we risk setting up a disconnect in the viewer's mind. I know this little digression probably seems way too academic, but I think that understanding the concept can have a positive influence on the final appearance of the piece, without sacrificing function.

In the case of this particular piece, your explanation of the need for a wider cabinet is well taken, and can easily justify the double doors top and bottom. Eliminating the center vertical dividers between doors -- typical in early examples of this sort of cabinet -- will actually improve the function by making the interior more accessible.

I still would suggest divided-light doors rather than large single-pane ones, although this will add quite a bit of complexity to the build. This is an instance where budgetary constraints may override a desired look, but at the expense of an aesthetic that the viewer might expect. And, if you really want arches in the door and bottom rail of the case, do make the curves fair. The eye detects even the slightest deviation from proper geometry.

Again, these are just my observations and words of advice; it's your problem to solve and I'm encouraged by your dedication to design. Have at it and have fun.

Ellis

A couple of things...

Barry Irby

I absolutely agree that your daughter/client is the final arbiter. If she likes it, build it.

Personally, I am not fond of the moldings you have added. Channel your inner Krenov. Strip it down.

Put a little more emphasis on the top rails of the doors.

I know you don't like manufactured drawer runners, but is you used undermount full extension runners you could make the drawer wider and deeper into the cabinet, even if the back had to have the corners lopped off to fit into the recess.

On the mechanical side....How does it fit into the corner? The ones I have seen fit against the baseboard and thus have a gap up the sides. Consider a cutout in the base molding to accommodate the baseboard. And think about how you are going to kill the horizontal trim to the wall. And remember the corner may not be square. Let the dies extend past the "back" so that only the vertical rails touch the walls.

now I get it- case extension

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Your suggestion will narrow the case while preserving the useful depth and as you point out with little loss of useable space. In my research of corner cupboard styles I found that extending the "wings" to accomplish this extension is common. I was able to examine the construction details of two cases and one had wings 5" wide.

I had lunch with some furniture makers while at the Midwest Old Tool Collectors Madison tool meet. The person next to me had built several corner cupboards. When I asked him about design he volunteered his distaste for what he called "English Style" with large wings that extended the case forward. If you look at pictures of these cases the side framing becomes prominent, for better or worse.

There are other solutions for narrowing the case but they deviate from the built-in look of one that snuggles into the corner and touches the walls.

It was an important design element for me to make the case as light and airy as possible, the opposite of design in many styles of these affairs. To that end the wings on this case may become less than 2" (intend to mock up to be sure of this decision) and front framing 2" and not the 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 common on some country pieces.

Bottom line: I might consider narrowing the case if it didn't have a price to pay in other critical elements of the design. I am not accepting that the case needs narrowing.

This case is designed to store stuff, not display stuff. I think this difference can have a significant influence on design. Remember, I am the guy always worried about how to come up with a design to store socks.

Where the design started

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

In the beginning I was directed by this audience to Gottshell's book for ideas on corner cupboards. This is the "simple" country affair described as "plain and unpretentious" by the author. Apparently the scope of plain and unpretentious is wider than I considered.

Re: A couple of things...

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

" The ones I have seen fit against the baseboard and thus have a gap up the sides."

On the two corner cabinets we have they are both like that and stick out from the wall the width of the baseboards and moldings.

That's always bothered me. Seems like wasted space...

molding...

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

This piece will be built as and upper and lower cabinet. I have no means of moving a single unit to its home.

Something has to position and hold the upper unit on the lower. The waist molding accomplishes this task in this and all the other two part cabinets I examined. It was suggested that I deemphasize it. Perhaps could use some more shrinkage. Will cross that bridge when it comes time to apply it.

Chester County Corner Cupboard

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Was yours like this one?

I became smitten by Chester County Furniture the first I saw it in Winterthur. I saw it as "Shaker with Style". I received permission to further study and measure pieces in the Chester County Museum. (There is something about Line and Berry I discovered while scrutinizing how it was laid out but I have not been able to get an expert to follow up on it. The lines very in thickness along their lengths. Explain that based on how they were thought to be made.)

I bought the book( most expensive book I ever bought)Furniture and Its Makers of Chester County and Schiffer's PhD thesis on this furniture.

I am not headed in a Chester County direction with this corner cupboard but if it was mine I would be. I am hoping granddaughter opts for a Chester Co bedside chest of drawers with line and berry. Going to experiment with it on cherry.

Re: molding...

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

No. I was referring to the baseboard on the wall causing the corner cabinet to be set away from - not up against - the wall. Above the baseboard there is a gap between the cabinet and the wall. Not sure there is much to do about it, just something I've always noticed.

Re: Corner Cupboard Rev 2

Joe Grittani

Bill -

Adding the horizontal elements was very helpful to the overall design. I'm guessing you could reduce the thickness of the base unit top to 7/8" and it would look fine. The bottom still looks heavy to me. I wonder if stopping the rails above and below the bottom doors by using your technique of half-dovetailing them into the front verticals might lighten things up.

Joe Grittani

Re: molding...

Garthinsandiego

Exactly. Also, the corner walls may not be square. It is really disheartening to find after the fact that the wall angle is obtuse.

Re: resolutiion of function and form

Sgian Dubh

Bill, your need to fulfil the requirements of the 'client' understandably rather take precedence over other considerations. You are designing from the inside out as I describe it. The storage requirements seem to be taking precedence, and there's nothing wrong with that. I was making commentary and suggestions primarily on appearance, not realising at the time that visual design elements were being superimposed (if you like) over the necessary cubic footage required.

I wasn't suggesting you attempt a door 40" wide, but I was rather hoping you could make the whole thing narrower so that one door per level would be all that's required.

As a small exercise of interest I did a quick drawing using the front dimension of 40" you later provided. To create the triangular plan leaves the two sides going into the corner roughly 25" wide, with a ~4" return on both sides to the front elevation. Your planned unit projects from the corner towards the centre of the room roughly 20 - 21". Using this footprint I came up with a surface area of approximately 2.72 ft².

Just for fun I drew a square footprint to come up with roughly the same 2.7 ft² footprint surface area. This results in a square cabinet with all four sides approximately 20" wide, with the corner to corner dimension ending up ~28". In other words, if you can stand the projection from the corner of the room towards the room's centre being this ~28" as opposed to roughly 21" for the triangular plan you end up with two front elevations to experiment with regarding adding the traditional features you prefer.

Still, in the end, you need to make your daughter happy, and I've made quite a lot of stuff over the decades that I thought was plug ugly, that never made it into my portfolio because I thought it was horrible, but the client's were very happy with. C'est la vie, ha, ha. Slainte.

Provenance �  Style

Ellis Walentine

Here's a snapshot of my corner cupboard. It occurs to me that within a category (e.g., Chester County furniture) there can be a wide range of styles, reflecting the period, the tastes and skills of the makers, the budget, and most likely a consideration of the surroundings. My cabinet has no pediments, no arches, and no bracket feet -- just a simple 2 1/2" cove molding at the top, with a little reeded frieze molding under that and a simple bead below. The waist molding is a simple cove with a beaded thumbnail under, and the feet and bottom rail are decorated with just a 5/8" bead. The joinery is unpretentious -- the case is put together with carefully driven (and hidden) nails -- and the spare, almost primitive style was very much at home in our 1781 stone farmhouse, which was redone sometime in the 1850s, around the time the cabinet was built.

What I enjoyed most about this cupboard was its peaceful visual simplicity: the lovely color of the aged apple wood, the way the upper door lines up with the drawer and doors below, the 12-light wavy glass door, with the muntins aligned with the shelves within, and the overall proportion of height to width. A more embellished style would not have complemented the room setting as well, IMO at least. Hence my longstanding identification with this style. Your daughter's tastes and circumstances should dictate your rendering of the form.

Ellis