Finish storage bags.

Re: Finish storage bags.

Don Evans

I'm a big fan of Bloxygen. I've used it for several years and it works great. If you decide to try this just remember you only need to put enough in the container to separate the air in the jar for the finish. So a can of Blox is good for many jars or containers of finish. It does take some guess work on your part to how much to spray.

Bloxygen is a gas that is heavier than air so it settles down between the air and the finish in the container. So store it where you don't have to move it or shake it much.

Price of it is $10.00 per can.

Don

I face the same problem. Solutions?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have been experimenting with this issue for years. Displacing the oxygen in the headspace with anything that dissolves in the finish will create a vacuum in the can and collapse the can if the can is more than about 1/3 empty. Collapse may not be a problem so long as the seal is maintained. I have tried propane and "Dust Off". I have not found a cheap, convenient source of an insoluble inert gas to displace oxygen.

The cans of stuff from Lee Valley and others does not seen cost effective at $9 a can. To extend this expensive source of inert gas I tried first displacing the air from headspace with Dust Off and then displacing some of the DustOff Freon with the LV can of whatever was in it(nitrogen, argon ?). The LV can, even with this procedure, did not last very long. There wasn't 1 minute of squirt in the can. I was disappointed

A pressurized container of nitrogen would be ideal. I have been on the lookout for a small pressure tank like used for welding but have yet to find one. Then I wondered about a portable tire filling tank and get it filled at a place that pressurizes tires with nitrogen. I am hopeful your post will lead to a practical solution.

The bags: Most plastic is a "screen door" to oxygen diffusion. However, there are expensive solutions to making plastic an oxygen barrier. These bags must be one of these solutions. A their price they cost way more than the manufacturing cost. They could be sold for a dollar. Their price is annoying.

Anything that is oxygen sensitive is packaged in an oxygen barrier package. Ketchup and wine are examples. I have wondered about the foil lined plastic wine containers, or a ketchup bottle, for varnish and oil stain storage. Haven't done the experiment yet.

mistaken Bloxgen folklore

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"Bloxygen is a gas that is heavier than air so it settles down between the air and the finish in the container. So store it where you don't have to move it or shake it much. " This commonly found explanation is not valid.

Most don't realize how fast gas molecules move. Yes, if "heavy" argon were somehow added to the bottom of a container of air without mixing the argon would stay on the bottom for a few seconds. But it will instantly begin to diffuse to where it initially was not. It will move from where it is to where it is not at about 6 inches a minute. In short order the head space in the can will be thoroughly mixed with argon and whatever air remained. Then there is the issue of adding this gas. There is no way to add it from a pressurized container without turbulence in the head space. It will be largely mixed to begin with.

Re: Finish storage bags.

Ryan

My solution which I've found to work well is to put the finish into glass bottles. I found that plastic ones don't work for the long term. The best ones are those with narrow necks (like ketchup). Fill right to the top, clean off the opening, place a small piece of plastic bag between the opening and the cap and tighten the cap (makes it easier to remove the cap later on). I'll use several bottles, that way if I only need a small amount of finish, I can don't need to expose the whole batch. I save all my glass bottles from the kitchen, various sizes are great. Don't forget to label well... and date them!!

Re: I face the same problem. Solutions?

Barry Irby

Many years ago I was building houses and did not want the annoyance of an air compressor. (noisey, burns gas, get stolen, load and unload everyday, fail, you get the picture.) I used big bottles of nitrogen with a converted regulator. One bottle was about $15 and we could install about a hundred sheets of plywood with one. That's frowned upon because if the regulator fails the gun could blowup in yo0ur hand. The point is nitrogen was cheap.

Recently we had a bunch of oxygen tanks about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and two feet tall. The kind you see old smokers wheeling around. Could not give them away. I bet they could have been converted to nitrogen.

CO2 won't work will it? Small bottles of ti are readily available for paintball guns.

PS...

Barry Irby

I have heard the bags for the cheap wine in a box are made to resist oxygen. I believe someone mentioned storring finish in one successfully. Drink the wine first.

Re: Finish storage bags.

Sgian Dubh

Joe, you might try throwing some marbles, or alternative similar glass beads in once the can has been opened and some varnish used. Chuck in enough marbles to bring the fluid level back almost to the rim of the can, and seal tightly. You might find this does the trick, no guarantees of course, and could save you decanting finish into smaller containers. Slainte.

Re: Finish storage bags.

GolfSteve in Calgary

I tried everything to make Waterlox last more than overnight without gelling in the can. Propane purge, collapsible bottles to reduce headspace, filling the jar with water to reduce headspace, etc.

The only thing that worked was to stop using Waterlox. Hope you don't like P&L #38 too much (or hopefully it lasts longer in the can than Waterlox did for me).

Re: Finish storage bags.

Clifton C

I opted for the 2oz Ball mason jars, 12 for 8 bucks, extra lids 12 for 3. I have two

jars of Marine Waterlox from 07/01/2012, still fluid, not cloudy. These were new jars, new lids and stored upside-down. I have one 2oz jar of Waterlox from 10/31/2015 that was decanted into a "used" 2oz ball mason and sealed with new lid just to see if the "cured" finish around the rim, and old finish in the jar might hasten the jelling or curing of the new finish and jell the whole jar, it did not.

So, I'm sold on the mason jars, I think the cost is made up for in the no lost finish and the convenience of just grabbing a jar, that, and it's easy to see how much finish I have on hand. Stored upside down? I'm not sure that makes a difference. I'll let you know in five years or so...

What might cause your results

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Fact: exclude oxygen from the stored finish and it will not never cure/gel/go bad/or what ever you want to call it. I have kept varnish for more than 10 years and then used it to finish furniture.

If the new container is opened and some is immediately transferred with minimal oxygen exposure to an oxygen impermeable container with no oxygen head space, it will keep for ever.

However....if the storage container is opened and left open while the project is brushed the finish in the storage container will have absorbed oxygen which will continue to react after the container is sealed, even if the head space has no oxygen.

Worse, is adding left over finish from an application container back to the storage container. Dipping the brush in repeatedly will thoroughly oxygenate the material in the application container and it is ready to cure the whole of the storage container during storage.

Excellent idea for storage

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

yes to upside down. Any leak will seal with cured finish and mostly not leak in oxygen any more.

Re: What might cause your results

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

"However....if the storage container is opened and left open while the project is brushed the finish in the storage container will have absorbed oxygen which will continue to react after the container is sealed, even if the head space has no oxygen.

Worse, is adding left over finish from an application container back to the storage container. Dipping the brush in repeatedly will thoroughly oxygenate the material in the application container and it is ready to cure the whole of the storage container during storage."

Wow.

I had no idea. I learn something new every day here at WC. Thanks!

Re: I face the same problem. Solutions?

John in NM

We buy cylinders of both N2 and CO2 at the local Airgas distributor. Praxxair is another supplier - look for welding supply shops and you will find the gas.

CO2 is used as an inexpensive mig shield gas, no idea what N2 is used for in industry, but it is commonly available in a variety of bottle sizes. We use the N2 for pushing liquid nitrogen from one dewar to another, and for repressurizing dewars that have gone flat. The electronics tech has a small bottle he uses for dusting things off, as its far cheaper than the little cans.

There are various grades of "low purity N2" that are called by various names, probably to cover the range of 90% to 99.998% N2. Higher than 99.998% is called ultra high purity (UHP) and is very expensive. That is used in closed cycle cryogenic systems.

If you go to a big distributor and tell them what you want to try, they will probably have a bunch of bottle size & regulator options for you. Though start up cost will likely be a little high, it might just be worth it to preserve expensive finishing products. I was thinking of buying a bunch of small jars to preserve Waterlox in - I only use about 1/2 oz at a time. A bottle lease and regulator wouldn't cost much more and would be a lot easier. Maybe I'll figure out how to add a schrader valve to a Waterlox can!

Re: Finish storage bags.

John in NM

Upside down does help if there is minimal air in the jar. I use the smallest jam jars I can find easily - 2 oz Ball jars would be better. I'll have to look for some that small, I remember seeing sizes more like 12 oz and up.

Re: Marbles

Steve jenkins

I thought of this but if the finish is anything other than gloss when the flattener settles out it may be very difficult to mix back.

STOP LOSS BAGS

Don Stephan

I have used P&L 38 gloss for several years and at least some of the finish was gelled before the quart can was empty. Even with regular use of Bloxygen.

Then another member of the Cincinnati wood turners guild told us about Stop Loss Bags. So far, no gelling and I've been working on this quart can for several months. The varnish that I thinned 50-50 with mineral spirits is another Stop Loss bag and that has not gelled either. Of course, I spend a minute or two to work out all of the air before I seal the bag after use.

Re: Finish storage bags.

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

Thanks for all the tips, replies, and education.

I've raided my wife's canning jars.

I will simply blame all of you.

Thanks.

Re: I face the same problem. Solutions?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

It is not a secret that our, or any, Air Products store will fill any tank with nitrogen, and argon is about as cheap.

"Though start up cost will likely be a little high" Have you priced a tank and regulator new? Prohibitive. I have a regulator. Need a used tank.

Re: STOP LOSS BAGS I use them too

MartinMJ

I too like P&L 38. Used it for many years but the loss of 1/2 can between projects was just too expensive. Then I bought some stop loss bags and eliminated the waste. I made a small fixture to hold the bag by the neck so with a dedicated metal funnel, easily fill a bag.

Looked at my bags, $12 for 4 but that was several years ago. Printed on the bag: oil, alcohol or water finishes.

alternative

John K Jordan

Joe,

You need to get the oxygen away from the finish. I find displacing the air with inert gas works better for me than the bags. For one thing I can use the original container and don't have to mess with bags.

At one time I use Bloxygen and it worked well but it is expensive. At the time it contained nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and argon. These days it's pure argon.

What I use now is nitrogen from a spare cylinder and regulator from my welding stuff. There is probably a lifetime supply of gas in a Q sized tank. The tank is not cheap but the gas is.

I use it in all finishes before I close the lid. As an example, TruOil is one that can almost set up while you are looking at it. Just kidding, but it doesn't stay good long in an opened bottle. But with nitrogen I have a couple of bottles that are have probably been opened three years ago.

JKJ

I'm no expert

Bobinak

But I have done this for quite awhile. I use a lot of wipe on poly. I also do a lot of BBQing using squeeze bottle sauces as a base for my own special sauce. These sauces come in several different sizes. I transfer my wipe on poly to these empty squeeze bottles and date them. When I'm done finishing, I take an f clamp and apply light pressure until finish just comes out of the top. I then close the lid, release the clamp and voila no air in container.

Re:Question for Bill?

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

I have a MIG welder so keep a tank with 25% CO2 / 75% Argon mix on hand. Will this mixture work as an inhibitor or will the carbon dioxide defeat the purpose.

There is science behind your procedure

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Tomato products are spoiled by exposure to oxygen which is why ketchup was one of the last things to be bottled in "plastic". An expensive multilayered plastic was invented that contains a barrier layer to block oxygen diffusion, additional layers to exclude harmful stuff from the barrier layer from the food and additional layers to provide strength. The tomato based BBQ stuff would be bottled in such a container. I have wondered if these bottles would be good for finish and you have found that they are. It is likely the same technology that is used in the finish storage bags.

These plastics will not provide as long term storage as glass or metal, but apparently good enough for many applications.

I predict success

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

CO2 is inert but it will have some solubility in the finish solvent. My best guess is not enough solubility to create a vacuum sufficient to collapse a storage can. I would be inerting with this gas if I had a tank.