Stop Loss bag has been very successful at keeping varnish from gelling before it can all be used, but I use it mixed 50-50 with mineral spirits as a wiping varnish on turned wooded bowls and other small projects. I've been mixing and using small quantities of the wiping varnish from a quart paint can, but with so much air in the can the mix starts gelling within 3 days. I'd like to find small widemouth storage tins with an airtight lid, like a paint can lid, but haven't so far. Something like the very old wide mouth 4 or so ounce Johnson Paste Wax can with a paint can style lid, but after 10 years it's still half full of wax. I tried a hobby store and on on-line search, but small storage tins have thin screw-on lids that likely would be problematic - stuck threads, easily bent, . . .
Has anyone seen something that might work? I did consider marbles, which is a common solution, but how would I get the corner of the application rag into a few ounces of wiping varnish at the bottom of a can of marbles?
Try the paint dept of your big box or paint store. They sell empty cans at our Lowe’s and both paint stores and some big boxes use small half pint cans for paint samples. They might sell some.
I've always bought small paint tins at Lowe's or HD. Not really sure how big the smallest ones are but they've been quite cheap and seal very well.
I did a quick search and turned up a most unexpected source. It amazes me how small a niche market it takes for a company to pop up to fill it. No experience with the company -- offered only as a curiosity.
Don, indeed, this is a problem I've had, as well. The Stop Loss bags won't hold a modified solution ? If you find a suitable solution I hope you will share it.
If you are not opposed to jars you can look at 4 and 8 ozs ball mason jars. They have replacable lids and rings if one gets damage. I found 12-4 ozs jars at ACE hardware online for 8.99 At that price you can occasionally throw one away.
The problem with any can is there is going to be oxygen in it unless you always fill it to overflowing.
I've mentioned before what I do, works for me. I displace the oxygen with a gas. Even TruOil stays liquid, which is quite a feat if you are familiar with TruOil.
What I use is a spare cylinder that I had filled with nitrogen. I have a regulator on it and a length of plastic tubing. Before I press or screw a lid on the can I hold it close, slip the tubing in the gap, and turn on a gentle stream of gas to displace the air. Then pull out the tubing and close the lid.
This is exactly what the expensive Bloxygen does: http://www.bloxygen.com/ The biggest difference is even a relatively small industrial cylinder of compressed gas will last for a bunch of years and protect thousands of cans of finish. I use the gas every time I open and reclose a can.
The best gas to use is probably argon since it is heavier than air. I use nitrogen since I had a spare tank. Nitrogen is a tiny bit lighter than oxygen but that's not a problem since using a little extra gas flushes all the air from the can. Note that Bloxygen USED to be a mixture of argon, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide. They switched to pure argon some years ago.
I get my cylinders and gas from a local compressed gas and welding supply company. https://www.holstongases.com/cylinder-bulk-gases/ Nearly any welding supply place can supply the cylinders, regulator, and gas. Large tanks are generally leased instead of sold but there are several sizes of small tanks that are user owned. I keep two sizes of gas cylinders, can't remember but I think they are either 80 or 125 cu ft.
The tanks are expensive but you might find a used one. It doesn't even have to be for the same kind of gas - my gas supplier will swap any tank for an equivalent full tank for just the cost of the gas. If a tank is old it may need to be inspected and/or hydro tested but an industrial gas supplier like I mentioned just swaps out the tank for a full tank with a current hydro test so the user never has to pay for testing. If buying a used tank from someone be sure it is in fact a user-owned size and not a leased tank someone never returned.
I don't know the cost of a new tank could be recovered by savings on finishes that don't go bad. But for me the cost is not as important as the finish always being good when I'm ready to use it.
BTW, I've read of people who use propane for this which should work fine except for the chance of fire and explosion. (!!)
I've gone through a lot of Waterlox and other varnishes over the years and I've always decanted the larger container into baby food jars, filling them right to the top. I got this idea from my father many years ago. A few years back, I found a jar of Waterlox that he had filled in 1985, and the varnish was still as good as new. So, you're only on the hook for a few ounces of product at a time, and you can use a few marbles to further cut your losses.
I've always wondered why you couldn't fill the air space with a toy balloon. You could just fill it with air, nitrogen or CO2 and stuff if in the top of the can and seal the lid. Removal should be pretty easy by just popping it. I've never tried it though.
The balloon material might need to be resistant to some solvent.
PS: I just noticed your location is McKean, PA which appears to be near Erie. I grew up south of Pittsburgh and had relatives in Erie and between (Butler, Bradys Bend, etc.), visited Erie a few times. I liked the lake.
"BTW, I've read of people who use propane for this which should work fine except for the chance of fire and explosion. (!!) "
The problem is that propane, carbon dioxide, Dust Off and anything else that will dissolve in the paint solvent, dissolves in the paint solvent and creates a vacuum. Not a problem when the can is mostly full. But once there is enough head space the vacuum will collapse the can, as seen.
I don't consider the addition of a small amount of propane to the can a significant increase in risk to the already flammable solvent present.
Nitrogen is the stuff to use if you can economically find a tank.
They are not quite as permeable as a screen door. A balloon filled with air and stuffed into the head space would be no different than no balloon there. Recall how quick a helium balloon goes flat.
Your picture reminds me of one of Frank Klausz' finish cans, after he put it in the vise to reduce its volume and thus minimizing the amount of oxygen over the surface of the finish.
>>>I don't consider the addition of a small amount of propane to the can a significant increase in risk to the already flammable solvent present.
I too don't think the propane in the can would be a fire hazard, but more the propane released into the air during the filling process by someone not careful.
for those of us that don't know anything about gas tanks, what might we be able to find, and where to look, that would be reasonable cost for the benefit? The only nitrogen tanks I know about are 4 feet high, weight a lot and probably cost a lot. If there are smaller tanks where would they be found?
I have access to scuba tanks cheap. Is there a regulator that can be put on them that would work?
>>>for those of us that don't know anything about gas tanks, what might we be able to find, and where to look, that would be reasonable cost for the benefit? The only nitrogen tanks I know about are 4 feet high, weight a lot and probably cost a lot. If there are smaller tanks where would they be found?
I have access to scuba tanks cheap. Is there a regulator that can be put on them that would work?
Bill,
I mentioned a little about tanks yesterday in the longish message earlier in this thread.
The tank I use for nitrogen in my shop is about 30" tall and about 7" in diameter, purchased from a gas/welding supply place in Knoxville (Holston Gas). I have maybe 5 or 6 of these with nitrogen and other gases for welding and a couple with helium for filling balloons. I also have smaller tanks the same diameter but maybe 16" or so tall. As mentioned before, you can't typically buy the larger industrial tanks - I think are leased only.
The valve on these tanks is quite different from a scuba tank valve and the nitrogen or argon regulator won't fit the scuba tank valve. I'd have to check the threads on one of my scuba tanks to see if it would take the standard gas valve.
Even if the valve would fit, I don't know if a gas company would put nitrogen into a scuba tank - you might call and ask. If they would, you would still probably lose the huge advantage of bringing an empty tank and leaving with a full tank five minutes later - you might have to either wait while it was filled or more likely, make another trip. It might be easier to sell the scuba tanks and buy a nitrogen/argon tank with the money.
Besides the tank with the right valve you also need a regulator. Unlike scuba regulators these regulators come with two gauges, one showing the take pressure and the other showing the regulated pressure. A cheap one is $40 or less. https://www.amazon.com/BETOOLL-Nitrogen-Regulator-Equipment-Connection/dp/B01I6BBPY4 The regulator output is threaded for a threaded hose fitting so you will also need a hose barb fitting for the plastic tubing, both available from the hardware store. It looks like the cheap regulator from Amazon includes the hose barb.
Amazon also sells small tanks but I think I got a better deal from the gas/welding supply place. Harbor Freight also carries regulators; maybe they sell tanks too?
BTW, another advantage of dealing with a company like Holston Gas is (besides the free inspecting and hydro testing) they are flexible about the tanks. For example, as my needs changed they have swapped tank types and sizes and charged only for the gas. I haven't asked them about scuba tanks but if they deal in those they might take those in exchange. I might ask - I think I have 4-5 scuba tanks here I don't use any more.
So a regulator is $40, I am familiar with regulators and by changing the threaded part any regulator will do for nitrogen (but don't go inert gas to an oxidizer). How much is a tank and how much to fill for a lifetime supply of inerting varnish?
>>> How much is a tank and how much to fill for a lifetime supply of inerting varnish?
I can't answer either of those questions. You can call Holston Gas or any of the other gas or welding supply companies. You might look for a used tank.
I think most of the cylinders I have are type "Q", 80+ cubic ft at 2200 lbs psi. I think the next smaller size is a "G" which only holds about 1/2 the gas. The trouble to refill would make the larger tank more desirable. Gas is cheap but I think suppliers often charge more per cubic foot for smaller tanks since much of the cost is in the handling.
You can calculate how long a tank might last based on your estimated use. When I fill a void in a can I do use extra gas to make sure all the air/oxygen is flushed out. Look at the the Bloxygen specs - I don't know if they list the volume or pressure but the can is so small and lightweight people often think it is empty. They indicate on their web site how many cans of finish it should handle. Keep in mind that they are not using nitrogen but are using argon which is a bit heavier than oxygen so even a little might settle to the bottom of the empty space in the can and provide protection. An incomplete fill with nitrogen might mix more with the air and allow some oxygen to come in contact with the finish. I don't have any data on this so I just put the tube low in the air space in the can and put in enough nitrogen until I guess it is enough to flush out all the air! Has worked for me. However, if I acquire another spare tank I'll probably fill it with argon for the shop.
I've been using this one 80 cu ft tank of nitrogen for 2-3 years now and there was still plenty in the tank the last time I looked that the gauge, even though I use the nitrogen for far more than finishes. For example, I use it to fill bags of things when I want to extend "freshness" such as vanilla beans - I buy these in quantities too large for a single batch of vanilla extract. I read that sealed bags of potato chips are filled with nitrogen instead of air.
I also use it for euthanizing small animals - perfect for mice caught in live traps and for animals that need to be put down for various reasons _ for example a young peacock with a severe bone disorder. It may sound cruel to suffocate a live animal but it only takes a few seconds and I'm not sure a bullet is any more humane. Two vet students dissected the peacock to analyze the bone condition and that method of euthanization did preserve the tissue and skeleton which they saved to reconstruct.
I thought I posted this earlier but it might have been somewhere else. The Bloxygen people fill their little cans with argon now. They used to use a mix of argon, nitrogen, and CO2 but they must have determined straight argon was sufficient or superior.
(Sorry, I am nearly incapable of writing a short reply)
Undeniably, if one has a tank of inert gas using it to displace oxygen from curing finish cans is effective. But how practical is this fix for someone starting with no regulator and no tank? That is the question I am trying to resolve. If it costs $200 to buy a tank (or whatever), regulator and tank fill most will not find this approach to be practical.
I wonder if buying a portable tire inflation tank that can be pressurized with nitrogen at one of the tire installing places would be a practical alternative?
Argon vs nitrogen. For this purpose there is no practical difference.
" Keep in mind that they are not using nitrogen but are using argon which is a bit heavier than oxygen so even a little might settle to the bottom of the empty space in the can and provide protection." Gasses don't settle. Gas molecules are in motion at high velocity. It would take but seconds for argon at the bottom of a quart can to diffuse to the top. Argon moves only about 15% slower than nitrogen, not a meaningful difference for this application. It would be better to squirt in lots of cheap nitrogen to ensure displacement. What ever oxygen is left in the can will equilibrate within minutes with the displacing gas.
For me displacing air with Dust-Off dusting cans and suffering can collapse seems most cost effective. A thought.....transfer partial can of varnish to a glass container that will not collapse.
Off the wall idea. Most plastics are permeable to oxygen. Any container for tomato, wine or beer is not. So...transfer finish to one of these bottles and either displace air with Dust-Off or propane or squeeze bottle to displace oxygen. Must save ketchup bottle and try this idea. The single serving wine containers might be another solution.
>>>If it costs $200 to buy a tank (or whatever), regulator and tank fill most will not find this approach to be practical.
I can't speak for "most" people. As I mentioned before, for ME the cost of the tank of inert gas is not nearly as important as opening a container and finding my finish in good shape for immediate use. I hate to find it unusable and then have to drive somewhere or order more before I can put some on the wood.
I read somewhere there were 12 grams of argon in a can of Bloxygen. If this is true, as a point of comparison one can calculate the number of grams in a 82 cu ft in a "Q" cylinder, nearly 4000 grams, about 5 cents/gram vs over 85 cents/gram for Bloxygen. (if I did the math right) And that's buying the tank and all - the cost of refilling the cylinder would probably be way less than 1 cent/gram.
If a gas cylinder is too expensive perhaps just buy cans of Bloxygen, about $10 to treat aproximately 75 quart cans of finish according to their web site, less than 14 cents per application. Maybe the rest of a finish in an opened can is worth 14 cents, I don't know. https://www.amazon.com/Bloxygen-Grams-Finish-Preserver-Spray/dp/B01N1WZFX1?th=1
If you read just one thing, read this: about using marbles, other gasses, etc. It is admittedly supplied by the people who want to convince you to buy Bloxygen but it's hard to refute their points:
Argon introduced into a space can form a layer below the air. Nitrogen will not and must displace the air and the oxygen to be effective. This is my understanding, not tested in the lab by me. I suspect this is the reason Bloxygen switched from the argon/CO2/nitrogen mix to the more expensive inert argon gas. Another reason is probably the non-inert nature of CO2.
But based on experiments I did myself (and playing with recharging HeNe laser tubes) I was surprised at how well various gasses "pool". A test for this is to flow a candidate gas gently into a container of air then plunge a burning stick down until it extinguishes. (This experiment is more exciting with a layer of pure O2.)
I suspect not, but if it would you can buy small cylinders for Paintball guns for about $20. And larger ones are available also and refillable.
And, if they would be useful for this, they can also be fitted with a pressure regulator that will allow you to hook up nail guns to them, making a fairly portable system not requiring a compressor.
