Help with a butcher block top

Save yourself a lot of trouble

Mark Hennebury

Buy a couple of these.

HAMMARP

Countertop, oak

$295.00

Product dimensions

Length: 98 "

Depth: 25 5/8 "

Thickness: 1 1/8 "

The price reflects selected options

Article Number : 602.749.64

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suggestion

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Presuming you have some extra lumber glue up a small cutting board, say 10 x 12 inches by the thickness of the island to get an idea of what is involved with keeping pieces in registration and under uniform pressure as the clamps are applied.

Franklin recommends 200-300 psi clamp pressure for maple for the glue you are using. All but a thin layer of glue must be squeezed from the joint. Anywhere there is a thick glue line will be weak. Glue is about 40% solids. If a thick layer dries the result is 40% glue and 60% air, or "Styrofoam", which has no strength and the overhand will easily break off.

More explanation....

Barry Irby

I am not familiar with maple flooring, locally oak is common and maple is rare. The flooring I have worked with is not perfectly flat on either side. They are anticipating the bottom side to be on the subfloor and out of site and the top side to be sanded heavily. I'm concerned this material will not mate up and make excellent glue joints. Inspect it carefully and and clamp a few pieces together to see if it will "lay up". I suspect you may want to run it through a planer or sander to flatten and clean up both sides, especially the bottom. This will also be good if the flooring is old, dinged, dirty, or oxidized. If you glue up dirty or oxidized wood you get tiny stripes at the joints, especially at the joints.

The second reason I have been concerned about the overhang breaking is the grooves. They reduce the surface area in the joint and thus the strength.

If the grooves are narrow and only educe the glue surface by a small percentage and the joints are clean and tight, I doubt there is any serious danger of a failure, but You have indicated this is all new to you and you have limited equipment and clamps so you might not get the best results. If any of the joints near the "hinge point" fails the over hang could fall off. This could be a "Fatal error" in both senses, the joint failed and it could crush a toe or child. The future is a long time and this joint has to last.

OTOH, I perfectly understand the urge to take "nothing" and make something out of it. It seems I am always trying to take some wood I got cheap or free or have had forever and trying to make something out of it with tools I don't have.

Re: More explanation....

Brian Holcombe

Flooring is produced by a molder, it’s a four sided machine but it does not necessarily produce material ready to be glued face to face. Flat material is best produced by hand feeding a jointer. If you decide to do this you may want to face joint then thickness plane to remove the grooves.

I would personally only glue one or two joints at a time.

Re: He is running lengthwise

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

He has stated the flooring will be running lengthwise, so a joint failure could not let the end "fall off", worst that could happen is that a lengthwise joint would open up!

Yeah, but.....

Barry Irby

From the OP....

"With a 12” overhang on one end and 12” to 14” on one side. Boards will run the length."

His base is both shorter and narrower than the top. I am not concerned about the end overhang at all, just the side one.

I calculated the weight of the top at something around 150 lbs. That means a 50 +/- lb piece is projected over one side. I have a piece of Bally Butcher block top about 2' by 3' still in the original carton out in the shed. I looked at it recently and at least one joint has failed enough that to use it I would have to remake that joint. Bally clearly has more experience than the OP. This top has suffered the indignity of being in an unheated shed for many years but I think it indicates that even a professionally done joint is subject to failure.

If the OP tries to glue up flooring that is less than perfectly prepared for this application, one of the joints near the hinge point could fail. Someone putting their hands down on the edge and leaning on it will impart a significant load as would one or two people sitting on it or someone standing on it to perhaps change a lightbulb or paint the ceiling. Stupid stuff happens. Murphy is ever vigilant.

Wandering OT

John in NM

If you have to remake that joint, watch out for metal corrugated fasteners in the block. I don't know if Bally uses the but I've found them in similar maple block tops I've repurposed. Where I've found them is across endgrain joints in the block, usually two, each about 1/2" from the center line.

No big deal if you saw through a couple, just don't have a good Forrest blade on the saw! The first one I found I didn't know to look for them and ran it across the jointer (newly sharpened knives of course). Once you know they're there, just set them deeper with a punch or nail set so they won't mess up your blades.

Professionally made joints do fail - that's one argument in favor of springing joints a little. Never seen a joint fail in the middle, it's always an end. Even professional factories have a top or two slip through before they realize they need to re-straighten whatever they use to get a straight joint. Wouldn't surprise me much either if a few of the workers didn't realize that wood still moves after drying and just mash a gappy joint closed - those are sure to fail.

Re: suggestion

Garth

Thanks. I like the idea of the cutting board trial. Things always work out better the second time around

Re: Save yourself a lot of trouble

Garth

I looked at IKEAs - that is where we bought all the cabinets and quartz. They don’t make them the size I want though - maybe for good reason.

Re: More explanation....

Garth

Thanks. Both the surface of the boards and the bottoms are all clean and smooth. I’ll try a cutting board first but I don’t think I’ll have to plane them. A friend had a bunch of clamps so I’ll be able to clamp every 6”

Re: More explanation....

Garth

Thanks. The faces and bottoms all look clean, smooth and uniform. I don’t think I’ll need to plane them. I found enough clamps that I can do one every 6”. A fee at a time sounds like the way to go too.

Re: Yeah, but.....

Garth

Failure does happen. At the very least I’ll support it with brackets. I might even put legs under the long overhang that way I’m thinking I wouldn’t need to bolt the island to the floor.

Tool to smooth the top??

Garth

I watched someone on YouTube smooth a large top with a hand plane. I’d like to give this a try. Would a #7 work or do I need a harder to find #8?

Thanks.

Knots - character or trouble?

Garth

I’m laying out boards and am wondering about those with knots that show on the edges. Should I face these down or have some show for “character”. Character is good but I’m afraid they might cause issues when I go to plane.

Thanks.

Might cause issues? You ever use a hand plane?

Dick Coers

Hard maple is difficult enough to hand plane, but knots mean switch backed grain PLUS a hard maple knot is like a little rock sitting there. Better practice on some of those when you do the cutting board!

Re: Knots - character or trouble?

John in NM

Yes, knots can cause problems when planing maple (or any wood). Maple can be very difficult anyway, but a well tuned plane can usually deal with it. If you're new to surface planing by hand, this may not be a good one to learn on.

You don't need to find a #8, btw, you can do it fine with a #7 or even a shorter plane if you are careful and use winding sticks to keep an eye on progress for reaching actual flat - without the sticks its very easy to plane a large surface to a non-flat shape.

You can also use a belt sander for this job if you're careful. I've done tops both ways, and both work. Hand planing is good for burning calories, belt sanding is good for making a ton of dust

Re: Might cause issues? You ever use a hand plane?

Garth

I’ll throw some of the questionable pieces into my board. They aren’t the faces of the knots more like the sides. Will see what happens.

Re: Knots - character or trouble?

Garth

Thanks. Nice to know a #7 would work. Would of the longer #8 though need less skill to use?

I tried a belt sander on my first sample. I went only with the grain. It made it smooth but left little shallow valleys. Should I have gone at an angle? This is the way to hand plane isn’t it?

All planes need the same skills

Dick Coers

Sharpening skills, grain reading skills, and using skills. If you plan on using a hand plane for flattening, you'll want to read the wood grain direction of each board when you glue it up. But with knots, there really won't be a correct direction. You'll have to work that spot in many directions. And they likely switch to a scraper to remove tear out. We are also talking the likelihood that you'll have to remove at least 1/16" in some places. I'd suggest you get a scrub plane to remove the bulk of the waste, then a #4 to get it closer, and then a #7 if you want it a little flatter. You'll have to plane at angles, cross grain, and long grain to produce a flat surface without any twist. Reaching across that slab with the hand plane is going to really be a full body workout. Something I would not attempt. In regard to the belt sander trouble. It takes some the same skills to use a belt sander as it does a hand plane. Except if you stop moving the hand plane, it stops cutting. Otherwise the technique is the same.

Re: Knots - character or trouble?

John in NM

A belt sander can be used for this roughly like a plane, at any angle that works for you (I go across the grain in the early stages). All you have to make sure you do is get all the cross grain scratches out. The other thing I do with belt sanders is to go with quite coarse belts early on - 60 grit or even 36 if there's a lot to remove. This speeds things up immensely and reduces the temptation to convince yourself that you can get that last little bit of a ridge or flaw with the next finer grit (which never works )

If you want to plane it you will learn a lot about planing, and maybe get somewhat discouraged, and have to work very hard at it - planing a big top will wear you out. But its also a lot of fun if you get into stuff like that (I do, obviously).

The way I approach planing something like this is to start with a scrub plane (it's the 36 grit belt of handplanes) going any which way that works to get the top smoothish and flat. Then finish up smoothing out the ridges & gouges from scrubbing using a #5 or #7. An #8 will just wear you out faster, there is no material advantage over a #7 as far as I know. I would probably use a #5 over the #7 myself, less effort. Planing and checking with the winding sticks works better than a long plane - and gives you a reason to take a breather from the planing too.

A couple of questions....

Mark Hennebury

Do you know anything about;

wood structure?

Wood movement and moisture?

Tuning and using a handplane?

How about Checking Flat?

Glueing and clamping tolerances and pressures?

Re: A couple of questions....

Garth

Only what I read.

From just working on a 2’x2’ cutting board I do know that it if I had all the knowledge, tools, skills and set up doing the real top would be a challenge. With everything that I have if I can get something better than the plywood that’s covering it now I’ll be very lucky. But what the heck I’’ve got the wood and have trimmed off most of the T and Gs so I’ll give it a go. Never know until you try.

Re: A couple of questions....

Mark Hennebury

The thing about jumping in and giving it a go, is it will be a good opportunity to learn if you pay attention, analyze the outcome and the way it holds up over time.

good luck.

glue appplication information

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

1. To bond properly the glue must be used above its "chalk temperature" which I think is around 60 degrees for the glue you will be using. You can look it up on Franklin Web site.

2. In the winter at low humidity there is another issue. The surface of the glue must not begin to dry before the pieces are assembled. Work quickly to get the glue on the surface and mate with the board it is to be mated to. Once together, where the surface won't dry, you have 10 min or so to work pieces into position.

3. To bond, both surfaces must be wet by the glue. You can either coat each side to be mated or put sufficient glue on one side and ensure transfer to the other as you mate the pieces. Squishing the surfaces together and sliding them against one another before the clamps go on works for me. This operation can be practiced on your smaller cutting board assembly.

4. I do not share the others concern for the strength or stability of a 12" overhang. If the joints are well made they will be stronger than the wood. It would take boggling force to split off 7' by nearly 2" thickness. Legs on this thing will be a nuisance to clean around and brackets could be a knee basher.

A global question to be considered, but not needing to be answered here, is why are you making this top, and making it from flooring rather than lumber more suited for the task? The price you paid was not a bargain compared to buying 2" maple planks.

A maple work surface in the kitchen can be functional. We have two of them where food preparation and bakery operations are performed. To be useful for this purpose they need to wind up smooth enough to scrape clean. Lumber defects can be filled to achieve a smooth surface.

If you are considering this top as a decorative element to the kitchen you may be disappointed in a year. I don't think maple ages attractively. You have not mentioned how it will be finished, or not. It will likely wind up an unattractive yellow shade, definitely not the white it is when freshly cut. Any solvent based "oil" finish will enhance the yellowness, for these finishes turn yellow with age. Will this appearance go with the rest of the kitchen?

If this top will be used as a table you can keep it less yellow by finishing with an acrylic water based finish, chosen to be durable enough for a table top. Flooring finish would be a good choice here.

Re: A couple of questions....

John in NM

That is a good outlook to start with. Take it pretty slow and easy - as in don't rush to finish, find the answers first - and as Mark says, pay attention to how its going and you'll learn a thing or two along the way.

The hardest thing to learn from self taught woodworking (or anything really) is that it will never come out as perfect as you imagine it, and you should not get discouraged by this. Mistakes are learning opportunities, so see them and accept them, if you learn to live with them they will be your friends - reminders of what to avoid next time.