Help with a butcher block top

Massive

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Because it’s flooring it will have two 3/16” grooves running down the old bottoms - the space will show on the ends

Tightbond 3. a good choice

Boards will run the length. .I presume you mean the pieces to be glued will be 7 feet long ? Otherwise you will need 8' clamps.

Will there be danger of the wood sagging or splitting on the long overhang? No

When I glue how many rows should I put together at once? If you glue in sections you will need to straighten the edge of each section to glue the sections up. This operation will take some skill and a good long bed jointer or skilled hand planing. I would glue one board at a time and ensure it was near perfectly aligned. It will make smoothing the top easier. The glue will set enough to remove clamps to install a second board in 30 min.

Apply the glue with a roller? roller or paint brush A clamp every _12___ inches? How tight do I make the clamps? as tight as you can make them.

Lastly I’m hoping to not have to secure the island to the floor This assembly is going to weigh a LOT. It probably won't move.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

John in NM

This is about the most labor intensive way of building a maple top, but it will work well enough it you're getting such a deal on the flooring that its worth all the work it will take.

I'm assuming the flooring is unfinished? You will also have two cut outs running down the underside of the flooring - all the solid flooring I've ever seen has those.

It won't be a problem for reduced gluing surface, but it does present you with a kind of ugly end with all those gaps showing.

One thing I've found gluing up a bunch of pieces like this is that it can be a real pain to do neatly. As Bill said, the easiest way around that problem is to have a long jointer so you can keep things straight.

I would fasten this thing to the floor, its going to be immensely top heavy, and though it might not move sideways on you, it may end up being a tipping hazard.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Kneale Brownson

I did this with oak flooring, only about half the length. Because of the bottom grooves showing in the ends, I opted to surround the block with some trim cut from the same wood that covered the top of the higher holes but did not come to the top surface level. Mine is afastened to the supporting cabinet with Z-shaped tabletop anchors..

More on clamping

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Somehow you need to keep this thing flat as it is assembled. Not a trivial task. It is not obvious where in my shop I could assemble something this big or whether I would risk the assembly. I would be thinking long and hard about somehow assembling 3- 2.5 by 3' units (approx.) and joining them in place by some clever means.

Changing my statement on clamps. At 1.75" high you will need to alternate clamps top and bottom of the assemble to get uniform clamp pressure across the 1.75" height. Alternating clamps every 6", that is to say the clamps on the bottom are every 12" with a clamp in between these on the top.

I suggest rounding the end overhang some.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Don Stephan

Some questions.

1. Have you clamped together the stack of boards and tried to move it?

Calculate the final weight of the top. How do you plan to move that weight, and are you comfortable with that weight cantilevered the full length of one side about 36" off the floor. Seems like it would do tremendous damage if it were to fall on a leg or even worse a child. Kitchen cabinets are not designed to support that kind of weight, so why would you think this design will not fail.

2. How are you going to dress the six surfaces after all is glued up, to remove squeezeout, glue stain, and slippage.

3. What will keep the initial glueup of two or more boards free of cup and/or twist? A strong straight clamping caul on each side would seem in order, not only to keep the lamination flat and straight but also to even out clamping pressure.

4. Are you planning to dry run of the initial glue-ups?

5. Are you planning a test of the final assembly? Put the cabinets together as planned, clamp the stack of boards together, position as planned on top of the cabinets, and from a distance test the stability.

weight issue

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The top will be lighter per sq ft than "granite" counter tops. The top will be less than 200 pounds. I do not agree that there is either a weight or tipping issue. Now glue up....that is a big issue.

Re: weight issue

George Koch

I would definitely think there is a tipping issue as soon as someone ,adult or child, attempts to lean on, sit on or climb on the 14" overhang. Maybe some legs under the overhang instead of brackets would be better.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Yonak

I believe the overhangs will be a problem, especially on the side in the orientation across the boards. I would plan for supports every 18".

Like Don, I wonder how you intend to surface this behemoth. You're going to need plenty of help as it will be heavy.

If you don't go with Bill's advice to glue the boards a few at a time, you may consider slow-set glue.

If clamping is an issue, you could drill holes through each piece and run threaded rods through the holes. These could stay in place to maintain good support and to prevent separation, attaching end pieces to cover the rod ends.

You could bolt the island to the floor to prevent tipping which, I agree with George, would be an issue.

Good luck with this and show pictures.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Barry Irby

I agree with everything Bill said, except I might be more concerned about tipping.

If the long side project over the support about 1/3 of the total width, I think its a concern. My calculation is the top will weigh about 150 pounds. That means about 100 pounds is on the cabinets and 50 is overhanging. So if someone leans on it or sits on it, it could tip. Some short brackets underneath would change the dynamics of that completely. Say two or three 6" struts. Or fasten it to the "far side" securely. I would be slightly concerned that someone resting or sitting on the overhang might break one of the joints and the 12" wide piece fall off. (Unlikely, but painful)

If you have a surfacer I would consider gluing up a "surfacer" width piece, skip a glue joint, add another with, Etc. That way, when you take the clamps off you will have about three pieces you could run through your planer. Keep them in order so the glue joints will then work perfectly. utting the three pieces together might be a good application for biscuits or Dominoes. Or dowels or splines, or just be careful.

It will be necessary to turn one edge piece around to avoid leaving the grooves exposed on one side or making that strip thinner.

On the ends, to hide the grooves, you could "celebrate" them. Drill every one of them round and insert a either matching or contrasting dowel plug. Most common dowels are either maple or birch, they should match reasonably well.

test it

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

When you get the cabinets fasten a 40" stick across the top with 12" overhang on the edge. Push on overhang end of stick and test how much force it takes to tip the cabinet, empty or full of whatever goes in it. I have a 40" table with a 9.5" overhang and there is no way it could be tipped over by pushing on the overhang.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Garth

Thanks for all the tips and things to think about. I’m learning there are ways to do this right but I’m hopeful to find a way to do this with what I have.

I’m going to trim the tongues and grooves off as evenly as I can. Leave the tongues and grooves on the ends that will be butted together. Put it together a few boards at a time alternating the grains on a nice flat basement floor using boards to hold the one end even and as many clamps as I can. I have no way to alternate clamps top to bottom. Hopefully a 2x4 will even out the pressure enough. I plan to build the other end long and then trim it with a skill saw.

I’m going to leave the channels in the bottoms and fill in what shows on the ends. I’ll do my best to smooth it with an orbital sander. Getting it planed won’t be a viable option.

I think the ikea boxes are up to holding it. They can hold and will hold quartz in the rest of the kitchen. I will though bolt them to the floor. Squashing someone wouldn’t be good.

If there are any fatal errors in my plan please let me know.

Thanks again

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Garth

One thing I’m still not sure about is the need for support for the 12” overhang on the length. Someone told me they have built similar sizes out of flooring and strongly believed the overhang won’t need support. A couple of brackets would be easy but rods etc I’d need to get my head around.

Thanks.

fatal and near fatal errors

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If there are any fatal errors - Whatever clamps you have alternate them top and bottom

Possibly fatal- I doubt you will get the top level.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Overhang is strong enough without additional support. Imagine how much force it would take to split 1 3/4 thick maple 7 feet long.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

John K Jordan

>>>I would be slightly concerned that someone resting or sitting on the overhang might break one of the joints and the 12" wide piece fall off. (Unlikely, but painful)

I don't know if this is a possibility but if concerned I'd reinforce it somehow.

I built a table about 40 years ago by gluing up 1"x3" hard maple boards. I had no idea what I was doing but was concerned about it coming apart. Before glueup I drilled holes through each board, except for the two on the outsides. I applied waterproof glue (a 2-part resin/catalyst glue) then clamped the slab together with 4 lengths of 3/8" all-thread, washers, and nuts plus what pipe clamps I had. (counterbores for the nuts) The all-thread made up for clamps I didn't have. Then I glued and clamped the two outside boards to hide the nuts and hand planed the top flat.

As I mentioned, this was about 40 years ago and we still use it today - even if a glue joint did fail the thing is not coming apart.

Knowing what I know now I wouldn't necessarily recommend the method I used, but if there is any question about the edge breaking off due to joint failure, some kind of reinforcement under the slab might ease the mind, perhaps cross channels with hardwood or steel supports, secured in the center.

As for tipping, I'd probably test in the shop with the actual materials if possible: cut the boards to approximate length, set on the base cabinet and clamp and secure, then test the force needed to overcome the center of gravity. Watch the toes. If unsafe, change the design or the mounting plan (or lower the center of gravity!)

JKJ

Re: Alternating Clamps

William Duffield

I have no way to alternate clamps top to bottom.

Check out this thread to build some trestles to give you room under the slab for alternating clamps:

http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/messages.pl/page/1/md/read/id/514673/sbj/low-bench-top-sawhorses/

The ones Jim Dillon shows are especially easy to throw together.

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Dick Coers

No such thing as flat basement floor over 8'. It doesn't have to be level as you mentioned, just a flat plane, and you won't get that. You are going to need filler at the end tongue and grooves since they don't fit tightly to full depth. You'll need more that a random orbit sander to bring all the laminations even close to being flat. You'll have more than 1/16" of wood to take off in some places. You'll also not have a flat top with clamps only on one side, especially if using pipe clamps. The pipes bend with force and the top will have a cup. Cover some 2x4s with plastic and glue up the flooring on top of that. Then you can get clamps under it. Don't put the cart before the horse and worry about the support. You have a LOT of work ahead to just get the slab made.

Agree...

John in NM

You could park a truck on a 12" projection of 1 3/4 maple!

Support brackets might help if we were talking about 3/4" thickness at 24" or maybe more, but as describe there is nothing to worry about.

Re: Alternating Clamps

Garth

Thanks

Glad to hear supports will only be decorative.

I could of use some of your ideas to get the clamps to alternate but won’t having the wood up in the air make it hard to get it relatively flat to start? I would have thought building it face down on a flat surface so I could tap down the boards would be a good thing. Not so? If I can get it as level as the floor is I’d likely be happy.

If I need to take off some wood would a good hand planer do it?

I have a couple of pipe clamps but will mostly be using these 2x4 clamps. They seem to work well.

https://www.stanleytools.com/products/hand-tools/clamps-vises/spring-metal-angle/2-in-x-4-in-clamp/stht83166

I may be bitting off more than I want but for the $150 the wood cost me I’ll give it a try.

Thanks for the help.

Re: Alternating Clamps

John K Jordan

>>>I would have thought building it face down on a flat surface so I could tap down the boards would be a good thing. Not so? If I can get it as level as the floor is I’d likely be happy.

Depending on your clamps they might put more pressure one side than the other causing the boards to slide beyond your ability to put them back into place.

To make it lie flat and clamp from both sides you might put down a couple of stout straight timbers (4x4's?), make the upper surfaces to lie in the same plane (winding sticks), then assemble your glueup on top, upper face of the slab down. Some kind of waxed paper or plastic wrap over the support boards might prevent gluing them permanently to your counter top.

Raising the slab off the floor will give you room to alternate the clamps, one under, one, over, etc. Since the flooring boards will likely be flexible you may need a number of clamps and/or some big cauls. I don't know what the experts use but I would want a clamp every 12" or so. That's a bunch of clamps. (reminds me of the old saying, you can't have too many clamps) If you don't have enough maybe you can borrow some.

If you haven't done this before be careful of the time you have before the glue sets up, one good reason to make this in several sections. If there is any question I like to do a "dry run" first, brushing on pretend glue and placing and tighten the clamps, watching the clock. The safe time you have depends on the type of glue and perhaps the shop temperature and humidity. All may be wasted if the glue on the first boards starts to set up before you get the clamps on.

You can certainly plane the top by hand or with an electric plane - I've done this several times, followed by hand scraping or sanding. It takes skill (that I don't have) to plane a large piece perfectly but maybe you don't need perfect. It might save some trouble to align the boards in advance to minimize planing "downhill" on adjacent boards.

I'm sure the real woodworkers here have better advice and answers to specific questions - I mostly play with lathes and don't make things like this anymore.

JKJ

Some sage advice

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Take your lumber to a shop and hire them to glue it. You are vastly underestimating what is required to get this thing assembled and flat.

Re: Agree...

John K Jordan

I like to use steel if there is any question.

The only time I worried about a 12" overhang when building my kitchen. I wanted an 18" granite bar on top of a short separating wall framed from 2x6 lumber. I envisioned some lively person jumping up to sit on the top but instead bringing the thing down, or at least cracking the granite. But I didn't want visible supports.

I built a frame under the granite from hickory and two layer of 3/4" hardwood plywood. A steel channel embedded in 2x6 framing gave a horizontal support to four L-shaped steel brackets I welded from heavy-wall channel and carefully designed diagonal supports. A 1/2" bolt with locknuts let me adjust each bracket to be perfectly level. All hardware was embedded in the wood. 14 years now with no issues.

JKJ

Re: Help with a butcher block top

Yonak

"Getting it planed won’t be a viable option."

I'm not sure it is even possible to do this without planing but since this is the case, I would take Bill's advice seriously and glue one or a few boards at a time to keep it as flat as possible.

Re: Some sage advice

Garth

Thanks for all the replies and advice. Simply having someone else do it for me doesn’t sound like much fun. I’ll glue just a few at a time and will get it as flat as possible. I’ll look for a power hand planer to help smooth along with some sanding. I’ll let you know how it turns out