About designing and making

Turning away work

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

I don't like turning away projects. But once and a while I will have someone ask me to make something that someone else designed. Usually they'll show me a photo of something they like. I politely inform them that I do not reproduce other's furniture. It's just not what I do. But in most cases it gives me an opportunity to refer them to other woodworkers who appreciate and can use the business.

T.

pretty table, but.....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

.....a change in dimensions could render it less so. I would have an impossible task altering the size of elements on that table and predicting it would turn out as attractive at the original.

I recognize that the table is attractive. What design theory(s) makes it so I do not know. I don't know that a design book or class would overcome this ignorance.

Re: pretty table, but.....

jesse cloud

I think the proportions of the table are nice, but the table, for my taste, is grossly over-ornamented. Interestingly, there is nothing in that table that suggests it is made of wood - not figure or grain, no wood color, no signs of joinery.

If one found that table in a furniture store today, it would almost certainly be mostly MDF.

Krenov would have a fit.

But maybe the furniture maker made what the MDF told him it wanted to be.

I could tell instantly .....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

...if the carving was done by hand, machine or molded into MDF. If hand carved with crisp detail that piece would be handsome indeed, and a lot of work.

I like painted furniture. Painting is the way to emphasize the form without the distraction of grain. I have seen attractive painted Swedish furniture, as well as French. I paint some myself occasionally. I even painted a Krenov style wall cabinet. Krenov stuff has nice form and looks nice painted. Painted, it is hardly different from the plain pear he preferred.

Re: About designing and making

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

"There is no shortage of books and articles on the making of a piece of furniture, but there is far less published about the design phase, from the initial conception to the working drawing. In a book about design, what would further your understanding of the process or be of help in designing a project?"

True. I am also of the opinion that most furniture design books are very mechanical in nature. That is, the focus tends to be on the actual creation and not so much on developing and converting a vision to a sketch or drawing. As a studio furniture maker, I tend to focus on the artistic aspect of a piece of furniture. It is more so about featuring certain elements or one main element in the design. Similar to what Krenov did. He selected woods he liked and created furniture around these woods. This is my methodology for one-offs. For multiples of a design, I would get more serious and develop accurate drawings, develop templates to be able to replicate components, etc. I'm also a huge fan of creating scale representations or maquettes of a design. I find that this represents the defining moment where one can determine if a design is a success or a failure. CAD definitely comes into play with more complex designs, it allows the furniture piece to be rendered and rotated in 3-D. CAD is the modern day equivalent of the maquette although I continue to favor the maquette. The important takeaway is that it can get expensive ( both in material and labour) to simply create a piece of furniture and hope it turns out well. Fleshing out a design is critical on getting the aesthetics correct.

So there are several approaches to furniture design. I would imagine that working with certain criteria is first and foremost. Is it a one-off or to be produced in multiples? Is it an artistic piece or purely functional? Case in point.. my Krenov-derived cabinets primarily focus on wood selection whereas my chair design needs to factor in ergonomics and chair design principles. A cabinet on stand is unlikely to hurt anyone whereas a poorly designed chair can fall apart when certain stresses are exceeded. The style of furniture is important. Is it strictly contemporary and not derivative of earlier design periods? If derivative,, then elements in the design would need to closely follow the period style. If contemporary, then the furniture piece is defining a new style.

A super-interesting topic!

Norman

Re: Turning away work - A question

Hank Knight

Thomas, your post has intrigued me. Do you automatically reject work that is based on a photo of something someone else built, or are you open to gathering ideas from photos of other people's work and incorporating them in your own design? Often I spend hours researching examples of a piece I want to build. I collect elements I like from various examples that I then incorporate into my own design. Bill's post below is a good description of the process. The photo in the FWW article he mentions lead to his own design for his table. He didn't copy someone else's design, but the photo sparked his creative imagination. I sometimes start from scratch with a pencil and paper and create my design from whole cloth. But, more often than not, I enjoy the stimulation of browsing examples of others' work for design ideas. To me this is different from slavishly copying someone else's design.

Derivative Work

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Artists have been inspired by (read "sealing from") others for as long as there have been artists. Using an established design "language" from which to build new forms has been the baseline for about the same time span. True, some design elements will carry through into the new work, but there's no shame in that. Expecting some revolutionary never-before design to pop into one's head is a sure prescription for mental paralysis and destruction of the creative process. After all, millions of years after the our species ventured down out of the trees we're still making copies of ourselves in metal, stone, and paint, not to mention the panorama of utilitarian items incorporating highly creative designs in form and color but all meeting the same baseline elements needed for the items to be used by humans.

Using other's designs to spark our own creativity is an essential part of the process, whether we are conscious of the effect or not.

I've been handed photos with a request for copying. If I find the piece worthy of study, my response is that "I won't copy it for you, but I will give you my reinterpretation." That's worked with some and not with others. The pure copy-seekers tend to bow out when they find that the copy costs as much or more than the original.

Re: Funny...

Barry Irby

People don't complain for a lot of reasons. Maybe they don't know to complain or who to complain to. They don't understand that the ergonomics affects them. They are working at counters that are too tall and don't understand that if the counter were the proper height, they would be more comfortable and not have sore muscles from hunching their shoulders. OTOH, most of us do not work in the kitchen as long or as hard as some of our forebears. If you spent hours rolling dough instead of minutes sending it through a pasta machine you might understand better.

Cabinets are dictated to be 36" because of dishwashers and ranges. Of course, ranges and dishwashers are the height they are because cabinets were 36".

Try standing in front of your vanity and bending forward from the hips and putting your face into the sink with your back straight. 30 or 32" works well for most people.

Those stylish glass bowls that sit on top of the vanities as sinks really should be on lower vanities. They quickly become hated Because they are often too tall and because they are very difficult to keep spotlessly clean inside and out all the way around.

Somebody said "Form follows Function". Many of us don't know why one thing "works" and another does not.

Re: Derivative Work

Barry Irby

You are correct. Try to design anything that does not have some reference to a previous version. Almost impossible. there is a certain utilitarian aspect that hard to get around for most things. Kitchen cabinets are boxes in boxes and boxes with shelves. Autos have somewhere between two and four wheels (or maybe 1 and 18).

Try to invent a piece of furniture out of thin air that has no reference to anything that has ever been done.

Those of you with the fine arts degree have better training than the rest of us and it gives you a broader pallet and better sensibilities. (Maybe)

Is it even possible to think of something that has no origin?

Listen to the music

David Yoho

I agree. Designing something never before seen is better left for those with artistic talents and education. I think, like in the case of music styles, that most furniture and cabinetry styles are influenced from earlier efforts. Music is an example of an artistic effort where most styles up to today can trace their roots back to the first music made.

I have never considered myself a designer but rather a builder. There are styles I prefer and inspired by that influence what I build. My best customers were always the ones that gave me full reign on their project. I also had some that came with their own drawing but allowed me to "enhance" it if I wanted. The ones I turned away were the kind that wanted an Ikea / Walmart duplicate for the same cost.

Michael Fortune's method

jesse cloud

I recently took a day long class taught by Michael Fortune on his design methods.

I highly recommend it if you ever get a chance to attend.

One thing I remember very clearly was how he designs in a business environment. His strategy is to pursue 4 projects at a time. Three of them need to be tried, true and predictable - therefore likely to turn a decent profit. The fourth of his projects is innovative, a new design, perhaps with challenges on how it can be made.

The fourth project, Michael said, is almost certain to be a financial disaster, but hopefully it will then become a predictable money maker.

This method keeps him profitable and protects him from growing stale and many artists do. By the way, he studied industrial design before becoming a woodworker.

I just don't like bending...

John in NM

Stiff back for years due to damage when young and stupid.

When I'm doing the dishes I'll put pans on the counter to scrub them rather than do it at the bottom of the sink - I find the counter top a more comfortable height.

For me those low vanities are awful, 36" is my minimum, but each has their own comfort range. Its too bad that no one makes adjustable vanities - that wouldn't be as hard as raising or lowering a whole kitchen!

Feedback?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Participants provided thoughts on design. What affect did this effort have on the book writer's thoughts?

Re: And Ergonomics....

ebd

[Quote]... All my best ideas were stolen by those who went before. ...[/Quote]

I hope you don't mind. I'm adding this quote to my compilation of best wisdom and quotes I've run across - with attribution of course.

A far as making models - I think it's a great idea. I don't do it so much with flat work, but when turning (especially doing simple segmented stuff with expensive (and unique) exotics, I will often make a number of test pieces glued up from 1 by and 2 by (structural lumber) to test the shape, get the process down, etc.

One small bowl destined for my daughter had 5 slightly differently shaped prototypes to help me decide on the shape I wanted. Another bowl with a sandwiched accent ring had 6 prototypes to find the way to get the ring centered perfectly (within 1/64") so it showed exactly the same from all sides. Pictures below.

We'll find out later

Ellis Walentine

I haven't transmitted the results of our query to him yet, but I will.

Ellis

Re: Derivative Work

Hank Knight

At the most basic level, I guess, every piece of furniture is a derivative of its predecessor. The elemental forms of the various types of furniture pieces, tables, chairs, chests etc., were dictated by the functions they serve and everything thereafter has been a derivative. Unless a new function arises and someone designs an original piece to serve it, all furniture designs are derivative. How's that for a broad generalization?

Re: Michael Fortune's method

CJ in MPLS

I've also heard him say that the first time he builds a piece, he loses money on it. Given the amount of effort he puts into building jigs to carry out his projects, I don't have any doubt.

He suggested that the second time he builds a piece, he breaks even and the third+ makes money. I think he is referring to multiple orders, not a single order with multiple copies of the same item.

Re: Derivative Work

Brian Holcombe

Functional elements of a furniture design cannot be protected but decorative elements and shapes can.

Re: And Ergonomics....

Barry Irby

All my best ideas were stolen by those who went before....including that one. I think the original version was All my best ideas were stolen by the Ancients. The word ancients had just been used so I changed it. Use it. Either way. I can't even remember where it came from. Google it. It's just there isn't much new under the sun

Re: Michael Fortune's method

Tony - Memphis

I'd like to take a class from Mr. Fortune. I like his work and his approach. I don't think he ever leaves a flat surface!

Tony - a little bored with the flat stuff

Re: Michael Fortune's method

jesse cloud

I highly recommend his classes. He's also a heck of a nice guy and generous with his time and knowledge.

Re: Every journey starts with the first step.

TomD

"I realized that some folks just don't have the ability to visualize a three dimensional structure. It's not a failing, it's just a function of the way our brains are wired."

Probably not, a field mouse can make the most amazing house. You have to start. I think there are many reasons why people don't. Mental limitations may be part of it, but in many cases it is other stuff:

- The stuff you make yourself, is not branded. We live by brands. If someone else isn't there to tell you it is good, how would you know?

- Spouses. If you are asking someone else what you should build next, then why would you design it yourself, they don't know what is in your mind. When I built my wife's spinning wheel, I took very seriously the people who said it was a disaster for a spinner to have a woodworker for a spouse. So for instance I built the wheel out of MDF, because it is better for the spinner, and many other things.

- Ego: So your stuff looks a lot better if you are standing on the shoulders of giants, than if you are designing it yourself. So the piece you copy will strangely probably get more kudos than the piece you make yourself, even if it is great.

- The reason I started designing stuff from an early age was because I though people of my class were more likely to be designers than makers. I respected both, and had more contact with makers, but I just figured that was what I was supposed to do. Egotistical, yes, but that isn't always a bad thing. And anyway, when you are a kid, they treat you as though you might be a pipe fitter or a president, reality occurs later.

- Fear of failure. My one RULE is that if you try something and you are not entirely right, then you will probably be right the next time. If your reach doesn't too greatly exceed your grasp, then you won't be that wrong. But when you are in a product mode, you can't afford to get it wrong too often - dang it, I need those bookcases.

(I wonder what the average IQ of a person likely to buy such a book is. If it is low end, that would be a problem.) Does anyone know what it really means when they say you have to write for a grade six level, but we are talking about adults in a society with comprehensive education? Is there a chart for that?)

Re: Classic and Original

TomD

Personally I feel it is very important to be both original, but also not ignorant of classic proportions. What follows is an original study I did with two Golden Ration designs, and one that was not. All rights reserved... For someone...

Also an example of what someone asked about scaling from drawings.

Re: And Ergonomics....

ebd

Just looked it up - supposedly Ralph Waldo Emerson