About designing and making

Re: About designing and making

mike mcnerney

What to take from a discussion with a client. I did the FLW studiotour in Chicago this year & one of the things the guide said was that he would listen to the customer & then bring him in & have sketches on easels set up each sketch would have what the client had said & then he would turn them over & say here is what I am going to give you.

I make models more & more & a section on model making could be usefull

MM

Re: About designing and making

JL

What would be helpful to me? The role of proportion. I.E. - the "golden ratio".

What sizes of drawers/doors work. How big should I make a table top? How high?

I typically build shelves and things to fit contents. As an example, I have a TV stand that I made. It has two shelves. I made the spacing of the shelves to fit DVDs. Is this the best looking? I don't know. When I built my shop cabinets, I figured out how high I wanted the top to be and what the toe kick should be be. The doors/drawers had to fit between the two.

I typically sketch things out and try to figure out what would look reasonable. Having a series of guidelines or thoughts on the design process would be helpful.

Yup, a chapter on why it looks good to the eye

Dick Coers

The Ancient Greeks did the heavy lifting with visually pleasing design. But simple things like making the bottom rail on cabinet doors wider to compensate for the typical viewing angle makes a huge difference. Understanding about visual weight. With todays trend to build massive slab tables, I see some designers just setting those slabs on small diameter steel hair pin legs. It looks horrible.

And Ergonomics....

Barry Irby

For example, It is my long understanding that Kitchen counters (36") are too tall for most women. Table height (30") is better as a working surface. Bath Vanities were good at 30" but for some reason have gotten higher< 32" and even 36". I have some design manuals (Ramsey and Sleeper?) and they have design standards, but we seem to be ignoring those now. Doesn't mean we should start a "men VS women" argument, but there should be some facts in there somewhere.

And Dick is right, there is much to be learned from the Ancients. (All my best ideas were stolen by those who went before.)

I personally find the designing to be the hardest part. Once I have a design and plan, building it is fairly straightforward. Can't tell you how many great designs on paper ended up in the dumpster. Maybe I should try models. Given a good plan, I can build it. Getting the good plan is a problem.

A good book on design would be good to have.

Re: About designing and making

Craig T

It would be nice to have a variety of information from different makers detailing how they design for clients, I think FWW has done this a few times recently with their 'Designers Notebook' section. Some information on different methods of making mockups or prototypes to show clients potential versions of a design and why you'd want to have several versions ready to show.

If it's a more modern book something about how CAD and 3D modeling has been influencing the design process and how makers incorporate them into their design system.

By the way, can you say who the author will be?

Craig

Better Genes

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I think that is the only thing that would help me.

On a recommendation I bought the book , Designing Furniture by Seth Stem, and for what I understood of it I might as well have been reading about the theory of nuclear fusion. I am not likely to buy another. No amount of book reading will enable me to design some novel piece of furniture from first design principals.

I wonder if there are two audiences for the titles Furniture Design for Artists and the second Furniture Design for Engineers.

I'm in the category of , "if your can't design, copy". My useful "design" books have pictures of stuff I might want to make. Or a trip to the antique store with camera and ruler.

Re: About designing and making

jesse cloud

One of the things that I have enjoyed and tried to profit from was picture comparisons of "good" and "better" designs accompanied by ideas of what it is in the better designs we find more pleasant. There are some books like this that focus on antiques, but I haven't seen anything like them for more recent work.

I think Bill is right. If you are approaching design from an engineering standpoint, your best bet is to copy and perhaps make incremental improvements in process, materials, etc.

But by and large design is not a logical process. The things that please us were probably determined largely by emotional connections to things we have encountered and understandably different for each of us. When I am designing for a new client, I ask them to go through some magazines with pictures of furniture and find things they like, then we discuss 'what do you like about this piece?" No right or wrong answers and its not fair to expect them to like what you like.

Re: About designing and making

Gary Smyth

Remember “Fine Woodworking’s” Home Furniture series? Dismal failure. Plenty of furniture and no drawings or discussion of what, and why? That series, while remaining collectible, fell squarely on its ass because it provided no answers – and no way to get them.

If what you need is height and overall measurement there are the Architectural Graphic Standards, 12th Edition series mostly for architects. These are large and full of “standard” information. Pricy at over $250 and updated fairly regularly these may not have value except to those that need to be safe in their overall and general planning. Lots of information though!!

If I want pictures there are hundreds of books and the internet. Great for ideas, but it’s hard to make a decision based on a publisher’s requirement to fit space by the electronic manipulation of data points without a baseline reference.

As for my preference give me something like “Measured Shop Drawings for American Furniture, (Thos Moser) or “Antique Country Furniture of North America (John G. Shea), Simple Colonial Furniture (Franklin H. Gottshall, Book of Shaker Furniture, (John Kassay). These authors did the work. You DON’T HAVE TO FOLLOW PRECISELY, for your own design, but the dimensions are there for proven classics.

Tell your friend to skip the esoteric and analyze what has proven to be a great standalone piece at least as a starting point.

Standards, the hands on approach

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I recently rediscovered that I have a book with "standards". I have never used it . If I need to make a table I go set at one and if it works, measure it. Ditto for about anything I can imagine ever needing to build. What would we want to build that a working example could not be found, tested and measured?

BTW, when we "designed" our kitchen it included 2 shorter sections of counter on each side of the stove for a vertically challenged spouse to work at.

Funny...

John in NM

I've never heard anyone complain about a 36" kitchen counter.

I did build the bath vanity for "my" bath on the tall side, I can't remember now the actual height. I'm tall and I like a tall vanity. Like Bill mentions, I tried out some heights and went with what seemed good for me (that is why I can't remember what it ended up being).

My wife's bath has a shorter one that she finds comfortable - this split bath plan was her idea of course, but I like it a lot now that I have a sink at a reasonable height!

I suspect that the standard heights for these counters has a lot to do with how infrequently they get updated - so the 36" kitchen counter is too short for some, too tall for others, but about right for many. Few people are going to remodel their kitchen because they would like the cabinets a couple inches shorter, so the cabinet manufacturers went with the happiest medium they could find. Same with bath vanities that are sized somewhere between adult and child for convenience of both.

Re: Standards, the hands on approach

Gary Smyth

I’m not sure I understand. If you are suggesting that real world, hands on testing is better than that out of a book, to a large extent I do not disagree. If that gets you the better result I won’t question that, for you, that is the way to go. Given essential information, do as you see fit for your application.

That said, there is something to be said for “standards”. As an extreme example. If I have a swimming pool with a diving board, it will work in my favor to know that the standard for the depth of the water at that part of the pool is twelve feet. I do not want to be the person that chooses to make the depth eight feet because that would exceed my height and I didn’t smash my head the time I did a few times real world test. Standards can have value.

My earlier point was that there are books that provide standards. You can subscribe to them or ignore at your discretion. Just recognize that someone did some work earlier that may eliminate problems on specific choices down the road.

Huge Topic

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

My route to design came via a degree in Fine Art. I believe being a self taught woodworker gave me freedom from convention when it came to design. But when I meet others who are designers we can sometimes talk for hours about the subject.

So I know there is much to cover.

I am not sure why a book about design would need to have things like standards or joinery and such. That information is readily available.

I would suggest it better to focus purely about design itself. Composition, textures, lines, movement, color. Sometimes furniture design is far more form than function. One only needs to see the work of Garry Knox Bennett or Wendell Castle for such examples.

Oh, but it gets even deeper. Nakashima's book "Soul of a Tree" takes design down the path of philosophy. Philosophy can add a whole twist to design.

Any design books I see tend to be rather conventional. I don't own a single one because I want to be a designer, not boxed in by convention. I would think it more interesting (and more challenging) to create a book truly about the essence of design from inspiration to exploration. Why are some designs more successful than others? So much to cover!!

T.

my grandfather built grandma’s kitchen

Bruce, a MN Galoot

to suit her. She was about the same height as your Judy. I get a backache from doing anything there, but she sure liked it.

Re: About designing and making

HC Sakman

Hi Ellis,

Funny enough, I have been thinking about writing a book on the same topic, mostly due to lack of books on design and/or how to design.

This is like the fish/fishing story. You know, teaching someone how to fish instead of giving/handing out fish story.

Handing out fish part would be the shop drawings/plans, the other part is obvious. Designing anything has so many aspects, factors and variables, all the way down to cultural to technical. Inspiration can come from many many different, unrelated sources.

I would go for collaborating on how to design rather than shop drawings.

Chico

Re: Huge Topic

Robin Corell in Atascadero

I took the same path. that's probably why I don't make drawings and prefer to just make things, refining the design as I go.

Re: About designing and making

Don Stephan

If the intended audience is experienced woodworkers then properties of wood and joinery would not be needed. But there are so many examples in big box stores of furniture that seemingly is designed to fail because of extreme cross grain construction, long unsupported spans . . . Seems like too many designers are trying to make a unique wooden furniture look without taking the time to learn about wood.

My Drawings

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

Amen Brother. If people saw the drawings I work from they would laugh. Pretty much pencil doodles, just enough to remind what the heck I'm making!

T.

Re: Problem solving with drawings

Hank Knight

Over the years I have come to realize that there are two kinds of woodworkers: those who can visualize a piece and build it and those who require a plan to build a piece. I was always amazed at the posts from people who asked if anyone had a plan for the simplest of structures - amazed and a more than a little condescending, until I realized that some folks just don't have the ability to visualize a three dimensional structure. It's not a failing, it's just a function of the way our brains are wired.

I am of the former group: I can usually see a piece and build it from a design I drew up myself. In over 50 years of woodworking, I have only built one piece from someone else's plan. That doesn't mean I can intuitively grasp all the design elements of a complex piece. On the contrary; there are often design problems I recognize but can't immediately solve. I've found that full size drawings almost always lead to a solution. The process of drawing a piece out in 1:1 scale almost always casts light on troublesome design issues and leads to solutions. Moreover, a full scale drawing gives you a wonderful reference for marking story sticks and other points of reference for you piece. A lot of care in making the drawing saves you time in the building process. I think this approach would probably work equally well for those who are dimensionally challenged and have trouble visualizing a working design. Start with a pencil and paper rather than a board and a saw.

P.S. I agree with Robin and Thomas who posted above: Many of my projects and are made from crude sketches and don't require detailed drawings. But for complex pieces where design issues are obvious, drawings are helpful.

Re: Problem solving with drawings

jesse cloud

I need to draw stuff out.

There's a time at the very beginning of the design process where it makes sense to quickly make lots of crude drawings, just to think out the options and see which have enough promise to pursue in detail.

Also there's a time to do very detailed drawings of parts of the piece. I like to chose projects that will expand my skills, things I haven't done before, so I need to think through all the details. Usually when I start drawing at that level I realize there are lots of details I haven't fully thought through. The drawing also helps to focus on areas where the process needs careful planning. The drawing process always improves the design.

Having said all this, I never feel the need to make the drawings pretty or neat.

If its something I have done often no drawing is needed. The wife likes end tables a lot, so a new order just requires a couple of questions to firm up the specs and off I go.

Designing a sculpture vs a bridge-an example

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Or to put it in furniture terms- Studio Furniture vs a place to put your socks. The process and talent differs. I suspect that those that would have no trouble learning to design a bridge might be hopeless students for designing a sculpture. Whoever is writing this book would be advised to know which audience he/she is targeting.

On a personal note, for 20 years we have needed a table for the kitchen. I can't imagine how buying a design book would have enabled me to design this table from "thin air". However, in FWW September 2015 pg 39 was the table of my dreams. But it is the wrong size and wood. I need to get from that picture and joinery description to a round table as nicely proportioned, in ash. But I don't have ash perfect for the feet. So it may be walnut feet and ash top if that looks good, or not.

So, I am faced with adjusting the size, shape and wood but keeping the joinery. I can imagine a book might help me to make these adjustments while keeping the attractive proportions of the original. And if not, I am not a customer for the proposed book for this is the process that leads to most of what I make.

Maybe the author of this proposed book will comment on how he/she could help me? Then the WC audience would have something more tangible to comment on.

What I intend to do is make a model of the adjusted shape from cheap wood and adjust to get it "right".

Re: Problem solving with drawings

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

Good comments there and I agree. My comments weren't necessarily pertinent to the posted subject. But yes, I fall into the category of those who can build something without drawings. But what is relevant (same with Robin) is that the only reason we can do that is because we have an understanding of design. That is why I think books about design can be helpful.

Whether one needs (or prefers) drawings or not is irrelevant. Whatever you compose on paper or in your head needs the same basic understanding of design.

T.

PS....you have only made one thing by someone else's plan. That's one more than me!

How I design(plan)

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I think what I do would better be described as planning but maybe it falls under what the proposed author calls designing. I have become more disciplined about this step over time for discipline leads to less mistakes and problems.

Almost everything I build has some customer specified dimension- height, width, drawer size , etc. From this dimension I make an initial decision on the rest of the dimensions that will determine the overall size. For the example shown an inside drawer size was specified as well as the number of drawers.

1. Then I make a scaled drawing as shown in PIC 1. The scaled drawing tells me if the proportions look OK and it shows me the parts needed. Now days I keep these drawings in a notebook so that I can refer back to them. The book might be cherished by my heirs who get these pieces.

2. What follows are a bunch of calculations that lead to the sizes, or at least approximate sizes, of parts. This list of sized parts is essential when I go to pick lumber for these parts. I pick lumber and rough cut many parts before I start any joinery and assembly. I might move 500 bdft of lumber to pick ideal pieces for a project and I only want to do that once.



3. I record these calculations, as shown in PIC 2, so that I can double check them when it comes time to actually cut parts. Many parts will be rough cut to these sizes and a finished dimension made off the actual piece under construction, a drawer front for example. But other sizes, like the height of the case side, must be calculated from the sum of drawers, dividers and molding that comprise the side height. This calculation must be accurate.

The problem with plans

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"PS....you have only made one thing by someone else's plan"

One for me too, first and last. Someone brought me a set of shelf plans. I got into building it and got screwed by an error in the plans. I can come up with plans quicker than I can check someone else's.

I have a difficult time understanding the plans in books and magazines. It is easier for me to figure out my joinery than to try to figure it out from the written and picture description.