WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Fluorescent light question

Posts

Fluorescent light question

#1

Fluorescent light question

Barry Irby

My shop lighting is a bunch of old 4' T-12 fluorescent fixtures. Most of them used or rescued when I got them. Recently I started changing some of them to T-8 ballasts. (got the ballasts free)

Yesterday I changed three more ballasts, tow worked perfectly and one is glitchy. I installed the bulbs with the switch ON. The bulbs tried to start, brightened at both ends but did not come on. I fiddled with them and they came on once. Thought I was done and turned off the switch. This fixture did not come on again. Before I climb back on top of the table saw and tear it apart or fiddle some more, Any suggestions? Loose connection? What?

Re: Fluorescent light question

#3

Re: why are you changing balasts in the first plac

Barry Irby

They were T-12 fixtures. Some time ago I got ballasts for t-8 bulbs. To make this slightly more complicated I just got a bunch of Phillips "Instafit" LED bulbs that will go directly into fluorescent fixtures. So by using these free ballasts I am jumping to LED fixtures.

Anybody want some LED bulbs for 4' T-8 fixtures?

Re: Fluorescent light question

#4

Re: why are you changing balasts in the first plac

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

As a result you will be moving from T=12 lamps that put out more light to LED's that put out less. Now if the t12 ballasts are old...ie magnetic....the switch to T8 can make sense as any T8 will be electronic and hence no flicker. The switch from T8 to LED I don't understand. What do you hope to gain by not using the T8 lamps you have and instead using LED?

There are at best three things we want from our lights- light, the spectral quality of this light and color temperature. Of no importance to most home shops is light efficiency. Life is easy, the package tells the buyer what they are getting for each choice. More choice can be had at a full service lighting store that caters to commercial customers that care about how their meat department, or clothing boutique is lighted.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#5

Now I am confused, again......

Barry Irby

My friend bought 150 Phillips Instantfit LED bulbs at Auction. They are advertised as "plug and Play". Just install them in any T-8 fixture.

I just spent about an hour looking at this on Youtube. I was thinking that my ancient T-12 fixtures were aging out and that I have a few T-8 ballasts on hand, I should go for it. My research on Youtube revealed to me that you don't need a ballast at all for "regular" LED bulbs. Remove the ballast and trash it. Hardwire new sockets in one end and you are good to go. There are bulbs available to use the existing tombstones" (sockets) also, but they are more rare.

And, I already have about fifty T-8 bulbs stashed I got for free. So, I think I will get the one that is being recalcitrant working and stick with what I have. I will keep my eyes pealed for a couple of more T-8 ballasts to convert the remaining T-12 fixtures. The bulbs I have stashed should be a lifetime supply.

Should have done the research before I got all excited about these fancy bulbs.

Thanks bill for the reality check.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#6

Sage advice......

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

spend more time making furniture and less looking for bargains.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#7

Re: Sage advice......

Barry Irby

You are right. In this case, the lights in my shop were literally fading away. The decrepit ballasts and bulbs had abut half of their original output. Sometimes I work in the shop and sometimes I have to work on the shop. Using my existing ballasts and bulbs was a good deal. Cheap and boosted the output. Maybe my eyes were fading a bit too. Not a good time for the lights to go dim. Some stumbling across the bulbs cheap triggered me into fixing a problem at no cost. We/my friend will sell the bulbs and make his money back double.

The auctions are great fun. Sometimes everyone benefits. We got a Biesemeyer fence system and sold it to someone on WoodCentral.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#8

Re: Sage advice......

Joseph Mulherin

Barry, take down all of those flouresent fixtures and buy some LED light tapes(32ft) from EBAY, install them on a steel stud with some clear wring tape, screw the studs to the rafters and connect the lights together using the transformer that comes with the LED tapes. That is what i did weeks ago and it is like having the Sun above all around....no shadows.....just good lighting all around. Besides the cost was only around $40 for all of the materials.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#9

To Barry and all......

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Your grandchildren will not remember you by what tool you snagged at a bargain as much as what you make for them.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#10

Re: Sage advice......

John K Jordan

Just remember that absolutely diffuse lighting with no shadows is not so good for seeing scratches, ripples, and defects, even if very bright.

Diffuse light is also the worst for visually evaluating compound curves on surfaces while turning at the lathe, for those who do that. I do use some overhead lights but work at the lathe by several carefully spaced strong task lights.

For the general shop I use nine T5 fluorescent fixtures each with 4 HD bulbs, spread out in several rooms. Some visitors have joked about needing sun glasses.

JKJ

Re: Fluorescent light question

#11

same here......

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

love those T5 HO lamps. Three fixtures replaced a dozen 4' T-8 fixtures. In fact I need to change to glasses that don't darken when I work in the shop.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#12

LED Yes, Conversion Bulbs No

TM Stock

Fluorescents in the workshop are as outdated as Fire Hall Bingo as primary weekend entertainment...I applaud your desire to move to LEDs, but getting the right ones in the shop makes a big difference in long term cost.

Having done a couple shops with LEDs, and having run my build/repair shop on LEDs for about two years, there are noticeable benefits in reduced/eliminated eye fatigue, more useable light going where it needs to go, and elimination of power-hungry ballasts (with conversion/direct wire bulbs).

My shop's conversion occurred due to a student that had an eye condition which made him very sensitive to the worst characteristics of fluorescent tube lighting. Even with 90+ CRI, 5000K and 6000K fluorescents, he could only get through 2-3 hours of work before suffering headache, eye fatigue, and nausea, We changed out the bulbs over his bench area, and noticed an instant improvement, as well as comments from the other students that the lighting in that area was 'better' than over on the repair side of the shop (we did not discuss the lighting conversions with students until we had a few weeks of use to use as a basis of comparison). After conversion of everything but the color-matching area (we do a lot of color-matching of old finishes by eye), the student could do the 8-10 hours per session needed for the intensives, whether in the machine area, repair bench, or the woodworking benches.

If possible, you might consider returning those 'instant' replacement bulbs, which stick you with the need to retain your possibly noisy, definitely power hungry ballasts, and get T8/T12 direct wire replacements from a quality vendor with a decent (90+) CRI. With direct wire, the ballast is stripped out and most of the wiring is eliminated, leaving the fixture itself to function solely as a bulb holder. We've found that the 5000K and up color temp bulbs work best for our purposes.

The bane of LED replacement has been average CRI values (80-85 typical in $5-$15 bulbs), but the last year has seen a number of vendors bring 90+ CRI bulbs to market at prices that go as low as $36 for a six pack of bulbs. The technology is moving fast enough that it's worth doing your own research and trying to find a vendor to provide the bulbs you need in bulk discount. I'm in the process of moving some of the oldest bulbs from shop use to garage use to get the CRI 90-92 bulbs installed across the shop, and the two new fixtures I have ready to go in over the buffers and grinders arrived with 92 CRI Cree LEDs installed.

Last thing - many T8 and T12 fluorescent bulbs don't meet the standards imposed since 2012 and updated in 2015 by DOE, so will cease to be either manufactured or imported after the effective date (2018 for the next set of regs unless withdrawn). While there are stocks of existing bulbs, it's likely that a conversion to LED is coming for most shops lit with 4 ft T8/T12 once existing stocks of fluorescents are exhausted.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#13

Questions

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Miracles have scientific explanations. In this case, what property of the LED do you attribute the miracle of the sensitive student, and will you elaborate on what the "worst characteristics of fluorescent tube lighting" are?

I recently participated in the design of a Performing Arts Centers in Johnson City, TN. The only non-LED lighting in the place will be some sort of spot stage lights. Apparently LED lighting has arrived for new construction. This exercise showed me that LED lighting made economic sense in such a setting as well as met aesthetics of such a venue.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#14

Re: Questions

TM Stock

Miracle? Not so much...actually a sad story with a happy ending.

Not an MD, but fortunately one of my students was - board certified, fellowship trained ENT (former head of ENT training, etc. for all armed services, etc.). When one of my other students suffered a retinal occlusion, lighting became an issue...60 Hz flicker and the increased sensitivity that those suffering from that condition see as they transition from two working eyes to one. ENT suggested LEDs to mitigate.

No comparison with florescent and LED lighting in shop - sufficiently favorable change such that a couple other local shops have done the same.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#15

I guessed you would have that explanation

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The ancient magnetic ballasts for T-12 lamps flickered. It drove me nuts and I could not work under such lights either for more than a short time. My brother-in-law, the lighting engineer for GE, alerted me to what was the problem and I replaced all my ballasts. While I was at it I upgraded from 99 cent(in their day) "shop lamps" to quality GE lamps. Problem solved. As ballasts died I have replaced them with T-8 except where I want lots of light from a fixture.

For some of us lumens per light per fixture is most important. In terms of lumens per fixture the T5-HO lamp appears to be the best there is at this time. Proponents of LED shop lighting are silent about how much light they are getting per square foot ,fixture, or $ of equipment cost. My operating cost is insignificant, a few cents per hour.

For the past two decades magnetic ballasts have not been available for any fluorescent fixture, replaced by electronic ballasts that don't flicker.

Another myth is that the light from LED is somehow different. They generate light exactly the same as fluorescent lamps, and in fact they could rightly be called such. In both cases the light escaping the lamp is generated by a phosphor. The chemical composition of the phosphor can be diddled with to get any quality light desired...for a price, for either lamp variety.

I am willing to consider LED shop lighting as replacement as old fixtures require replacing. But the proponents of this lighting need to be revealing how much light the LED options generate. There was a rush of enthusiasm when Cosco offered LED shop lights. I looked into them and they didn't put out as much light as a standard 2 lamp T-8. I had no interest in less light as a replacement.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#16

Re: LED Yes, Conversion Bulbs No

Barry Irby

As I mentioned earlier, I have learned a lot in this discussion.

I will not be using the Instafit replacements.

When and if I convert to LED bulbs it will be the type that do not require a ballast.

I may continue to wait on LED bulbs until I get some with a high CRI and a High output in Lumens.

I have 60 T-8 fluorescents I got for nothing. Now I am suspicious as to why they were free. Perhaps Home Depot gave them away because they had some sort of defect. I will ask them if anybody there remembers.

Two thoughts I haven't seen mentioned. The LED bulbs have an internal reflector. Could it be they are more effective at casting the light downward and a higher percentage of their output effectively reaches the work surface?

And, LED bulbs are plastic and would seem to be safer in the workshop that glass tubes.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#17

Re: Fluorescent light question

Gary Smyth

This is no way intended to make you choose. What ever you choose - fluorescent, incandescent, LED these lists (long--follow through all the pages --especially the second link where there is a listing for woodworking) may help for a particular task or location. They might be worth copying for reference. For me there were exceptions relating to color temperature and shadow control. but foot candles or lux at the point of viewing are nearly always a good place to start. I did not find the AIA Standards List online, but these may help.

https://www.archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/electrical/recommended-lighting-levels-in-buildings.html

http://www.bristolite.com/interfaces/media/Footcandle%20Recommendations%20by%20Guth.pdf

Re: Fluorescent light question

#18

Re: I guessed you would have that explanation

TM Stock

In terms of background, Bill's usually not this aggressive in response to input, but he's still apparently a little miffed over a recent exchange I had with him on the hand tool board re: regluing failed Titebond joints. Given the sparse traffic there, I thought it worth mentioning for those here on the broader topic board that are somewhat puzzled as to the nature of the current exchange.

Back to business:

Most of the folks listening in likely have shops lit by T8 and/or T12 fixtures - 4 foot bulbs are quite common, with T8 being used in the shop light fixtures sold through Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Upgrades to newer, higher efficiency T5 to T5 HO fixtures and bulbs, as well as swapping out older magnetic and cheap electronic ballasts are certainly doable, but then we're spending enough time and money to warrant looking at life cycle cost, which is all about longevity and efficiency. Bottom line is that we're talking about 30 lumens/watt for fluorescents and about 50 lumens per watt for LEDs, with life for T8/T12 at 8,000-10,000 hours, the newest T5 bulbs at about 20,000 - 36,000 hours, and LEDs ranging from 25,000 to 50,000 hours. Last time I payed a power bill, we were still billed in kilowatt hour increments, so more watts/lumen (a lumen is a unit of luminous flux...more are brighter, etc.) means fewer bucks for the same amount of light over a given unit of time.

For new construction, I think Bill's point is valid re: new T5/T5 HO units, but again, high CRI bulbs are going to be more costly for both fluorescents and LEDs, and we will still see long term savings due to longer life and lower cost per lumen delivered to the work area with LEDs, so the trade space is defined by whether acquisition costs or life cycle costs dominate in your decision making.

Re: actual output: Why does a fluorescent bulb that generates the same lumen output end up delivering less light than an LED with the same rated output? Both bulbs are rated for total light output, but the fluorescent is unidirectional, so for the upper 180 degrees of the bulb's output to be useful, a reflector is needed. That reflector is external to the bulb - built into the fixture - and usually is no more than 80% or so efficient before internal reflection losses and degradation due to dust, etc. further reduce fixture output Mirrored reflectors are more efficient - up to 98% for practical designs - but in wood shops, those higher efficiency reflectors require some work to keep clean. LEDs use an internal mirror for each LED element, but these are sealed and suffer very little degradation over time. Further, LED output is measured AFTER losses due to less-than-perfect reflectors. So that 2500 lumen fluorescent likely delivers no more than 2250 lumens to your work space, and likely less over time as dust accumulates on the reflector. Another way to look at this is that LEDs will consume about 60%-70% as much electricity and deliver more illumination for the same rated output than comparable fluorescents.

Other considerations: both fluorescents and LEDs degree over time - both see between 5% and 15% loss in output over the rated life, with much of that near the end of their lifespan. The difference is that the current generation of T8 and T12 bulbs last about 8,000 to 10,000 hours (T5's last quite a bit longer), versus the 25,000 to 50,000 hours seen from LEDs, so florescent users will see degradation on a more frequent basis than with LEDs, but still see about the same average output.

The game-changer in all this is the newer T5 and T5 High output bulbs, which last longer, are more efficient, and - when paired with high quality electronic ballasts, can come close to the watt/lumen outputs seen in current LEDs. Cost for the technology varies, you can do the searches and see which makes sense. T5 bulbs usually are rated for 20,000-36,000 hours, so life cycle costs are not that much greater than LEDs and the HO units can squeeze out close to double the rated output (but at about double the power consumption...TNSTAAFL) per bulb. I would expect HO bulbs in LED to hit the market within a year or two, just as we now have T5 format LED bulbs.

On flicker...some people show more sensitivity than others, and older fluorescents were certainly more prone to sensible flicker than modern ballast designs. LEDs should be flicker free if driven at DC, but there are efficiency cost associated with that sort of design, so most LEDs used in the lighting we are talking about handle AC line power management on the chip, and are less likely to show some line frequency-multiple flicker. From what I can find re: trade and technical docs, LEDs are about 3 times more stable in light output than fluorescents, but unless you or someone in your shop is extremely sensitive to flicker frequency at the relatively low amplitudes seen in better florescent fixture/bulb combos and LEDs, it will likely not be an issue. My shop lighting was a mix of 20-30 year old T12 and 15 year old T8 fixtures, so certainly due for an update.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#19

Concern about LED light fixtures

John K Jordan

What concerns me about LEDs are some reports that some LED lights have lost significant light output much sooner than advertised. LED shop lights have not yet been in use long enough to be proven.

One issue is the lack of proper cooling on some cheap fixtures - LEDs can degrade and fail with too much heat. if anyone thinks an LED runs cool try holding on to the front of a high-output LED "tactical" flashlight at the sear-your-retina setting. Some of the better shop fixtures have a big heatsink - I bought some for my barn where the LED strip is bonded to a large thick aluminum housing to dissipate heat.

Claims of years of life are unproven engineering or marketing "estimates" or even hype. Anecdotal case: I bought two very nice LED porch lights for my shop. One started to flicker and died after 2 years. It is trash since the "bulbs" can't be replaced easily. I'm replacing them with fixtures that have replaceable bulbs.

If LED shop lights lose brightness gradually a user might never notice. Use a light meter at a given distance and record the light output when new. I've done that for several lights. I'll report back in a few years.

As for the T5 fixtures I love the feature in the electronic ballast that lets me turn on either all or 1/2 of the bulbs in a multi-bulb fixture. Most of the time I use just 1/2 the bulbs but when I want it the full brightness it's there. I don't know if all electronic ballasts are like this but two brands I bought are. None of the sales people I've asked even knew about it.

JKJ

Re: Fluorescent light question

#20

how do you do that

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

"As for the T5 fixtures I love the feature in the electronic ballast that lets me turn on either all or 1/2 of the bulbs in a multi-bulb fixture". Where is the switch?

When measuring with light meter it is best to measure light reflected off the bench surface . For best vision something like 300 ft candles (I think that is the unit) is ideal. Outside in the shade is 500 for comparison. How I wish my shop had widows!

Re: Fluorescent light question

#21

Re: LED light fixtures life cycle /degrading

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

I have replaced all the high usage lights in my home with LED replacement bulbs, some of these on 24 /7. I also replaced my driveway security light which use the Par38 bulbs over a year ago. Due to animals, passing traffic in the alley adjacent to my driveway the security light cycles fairly often. The previous Halogen bulbs would only last 6 months or so. While the Led's were substantially more expensive, $50 vs about $20 for halogen. The Led bulbs are already about justified due to not replacing without figuring the electrical cost savings. The Led's visually do not appear to give any less light to the driveway, although I do not have access to a light-meter to verify. Obviously Led's have a greater advantage in life where lights are cycled more often as they do not deteriorate as filament bulbs do due to the heat cooling cycle.

As I have stated I have been replacing the high usage bulbs, including 1 single strip florescent light fixture on 24/7, I have installed many of these more than a years ago, I have not had one failure, nor noticed any deterioration in light quality. Historically I would have replaced some of the filament bulbs at least once every year.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#22

Re: LED light fixtures life cycle /degrading

TM Stock

I seem to recall these same discussions when incandescents were replaced with CFLs and vinyl with CD. Tech transitions are always messy, and there's almost always a price to pay for some niche users. We'll likely see what we see now...apps where fluorescents and incandescents provide some cost or functional benefit, and the bulk of consumers and businesses moving to LEDs as the tech advance slows down and the infrastructure to manufacture builds out such that acquisition costs drop enough to get over the initial hurdle.

I forgot to mention that I did retain two fluorescent bench lights in the shop for a very specific purpose - when we work magnetic pickup issues, we use them to identify shielding issues...the spray of RF gives me a strong, convenient source of interference that tells me just how effective our shielding work is on pickup and wiring installs. These lamps also have decent CRI fluorescents that are useful when color matching, although we've recently gone to full spectrum high CRI LED task lights for most of that work as variable output lamps have come to market.

Re: Fluorescent light question

#23

Re: how do you do that - wiring T5

John K Jordan

>>>"As for the T5 fixtures I love the feature in the electronic ballast that lets me turn on either all or 1/2 of the bulbs in a multi-bulb fixture". Where is the switch?

All mine have a diagram on the ballast with the wiring instructions. Power a specific pair of wires and control the on/off with a switch. Hook a separate switch to another pair of wires. I would have to take one apart to remember the details. I think the chart allows for some other configurations as well in addition to the 2-on or 4-on.

The state of the second switch controls whether two bulbs or four bulbs light when the fixtures are turned on with the primary switch. Flipping the secondary switch does nothing until the fixture is powered by the main switch.

I mount the primary switch(s) at the normal switch height at the entrance to the room. I mount the secondary switch higher up on the wall. Since all my lighting is in task zones I have eight of these secondary switches in the shop, some nearer to the task area than others. On a couple I used 3-way switches on the secondaries so I could flip on the extra lights without walking so far. I'm pretty lazy.

Note that I did reconfigure several of the fixtures to suit myself. The 8' fixtures with four 48"-foot bulbs were wired so the secondary switch switched the two adjacent bulbs on one end of the long fixture. This design made no sense to me. I rewired them so two bulbs in line always come on with the secondary switch controlling the other two in line adjacent to the first two (if that makes sense). This was confusing until I drew a diagram with the wire colors. It was easy to modify - just pop out some of the bulb connectors and swap them around.

I bought several types of fixtures from Home Depot, both high bay and direct ceiling mount and although some are different brands they all had the same options on the electronic ballast. This is no guarantee, of course, that any others are like this. I think the diagram in my fixtures is similar to this one I found in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1905971 I didn't read the thread.

JKJ

Re: Fluorescent light question

#24

Re: LED light fixtures life cycle /degrading

John K Jordan

>>>I seem to recall these same discussions when incandescents were replaced with CFLs and vinyl with CD.

And when electric lights replaced fire and automobiles replaced horses...

Doesn't mean the new technology always stays around long. Hydrogen filled dirigibles, Wankel engines in automobiles, negative heel Earth Shoes...

JKJ

Re: Fluorescent light question

#25

Re: LED light fixtures life cycle /degrading

TM Stock

Usually new technologies that work better win out in the long term, but sometimes a seminal event dooms things (Hindenburg), or the company mismanages the introduction (BetaMax; HD-DVD), or it's just not enough of a bump in capability to get over the cost associated with the change (most kitchen gizmos), or it 'automates' something that is quicker and easier to do manually. Worst case is when the entire tech area becomes obsolete (mass portable storage in a streaming entertainment culture...bye bye, DVD kiosk businesses, video stores, CD and DVD sales at Best Buy).

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.