Festool?

Re: Festool?

Chuck in ND

>Too rich for my blood, and so is a SawStop. Expensive tools are nice to have, but somewhere I've got to draw the line when I can't make a liveing useing them in this day and age. I'm not a rich guy, but I'm old enough to know how to work smarter and not harder.

Re: Festool?

Roger Lance in GR, Michigan

>When I was a young guy (a long time ago), I remember some interview of a Russian citizen on how deprived they were in their living conditions/standards and the Russian said that since he had never had a color television, he did not miss having a tv or other artifacts that we of the West just can't seem to live without. This outlook seems to apply to me now as I'm Festool free and not losing any sleep over it either. Personaly, I'd rather have a perfectly good/accurate mitersaw (tool) that cost $500 and also have $800 in cash to invest than have a $1300 Kapex and zilch in the ole pocketbook. Just my .02c or $800.02.

Re: Festool?

Vijay

>Here is my take on the Festool line

1. Circular saw TS 55/75 along with the guide rail system is excellent especially with the vacuum system that sucks up all dust. And the cut quality is smooth and jointer straight. You can get this in the EZSmart/Lee Valley/Hartville/etc without the dust collection.

2. ROS sanders. The ETS 150/3 finish sander is a joy to use again with the wonderful vacuum. The RO sander is very aggressive and can take the place of a belt sander in the aggressive mode, and an almost finish sander in the other mode. Although the size of the ETS is more comfortable. There are no comparable sanders available in any brand.

3. Miter saw is supposed to be perfect but at $ 1300 it ought to be.

4, The jig saw is very good but so is the Bosch for about 1/3 the cost.

5. Their routers use the rail system so that is a plus, plus good dust collection. You can get this with EZSmart/Lee Valley/Hartville/etc without the dust collection

All the above are my own prejudiced opinions. Others may have different opinions (they may be right or wrong depending on your perspective)

Only you can determine if the tools are worth the money. But you should try them out at the dealer and see what you think.

Vijay

Maybe yes.

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

>I think this question gets right to the heart of a very philisophical woodworking topic. That is about choosing and buying tools. It might be one of the more interesting subjects and certainly one I have discussed with many fellow woodworkers.

I think every woodworker is unique. Each of us has a set of circumstances that lead us to making decisions about what tools to buy and how much we spend. I don't believe that there are right or wrongs. Is a Konrad Sauer hand plane worth $3,000? Ask an owner and they will assure you that it is. And you know what? They are right. Just as right as another woodworker who would never substitute their Stanley plane that they bought at a garage sale for $20.

In my case, I am making part of my living building furniture. I believe that it makes sense for me to buy quality tools and machines. They aren't always the most expensive but I seek tools that provide excellent performance. Years ago, when I was a hobbyist, many of the tools I own today would not have been justified.

That said, yes I own some Festool products. I am not an expert of their entire line but I have carefully examined the tools I owned before purchasing. I believe the tools I have purchased have all been extremely well engineered. In some cases, Festool thinks outside of the box when it comes to engineering. They have all performed well and met the demands I place on them.

So are they worth the money? For a hobbyist I think that is a matter of opinion and personal choice. In a professional shop the equasion might be different. If the Festools provide certain efficiencies and improved results then that equates to money. And in the long run that can equate to justification and worthwhile value.

As for the Kapex saw....I have a 10 year old Dewalt slider. It has done an adequate job but I know that some day it will become my "carpentry saw". So while I'm not sure I will buy the Kapex, I will at least check it out. I agree that $1,300 is a lot. But maybe not if my business counts on it.

Just another perspective.

Tom

Re: Festool?

Brian in Sandusky, OH

>Depends....

First off, I haven't seen the miter saw, but dang, that's pricey even for Festool. Personally, I probably wouldn't buy that one.

So I think that it depends on how serious you are.

Festool tools are definitely better, and worth the money, in my opinion.

If I were starting all over, and reinvesting completely from scratch with all my tools, here's what I'd do....

A big Felder combination machine.

A big Laguna or Mini Max bandsaw.

Everything else would be Festool.

(with the exeption of the miter saw...see above.)

Re: Maybe yes.

Art Liebeskind

>I won't be as philosophic. You CAN do anything you need to without them. BUT, they are cleverly engineered and work beautifully. You can do good work with any tool but it is a great pleasure to use a tool that is superb. Don't sneer unless you have tried them. I am delighted with my collection and thoroughly recommend them if you have the disposable income to acquire them

Art Liebeskind

Re: Festool?

Art Liebeskind

>Just read your response after posting mine. You have EXACTLY described my shop! It is great fun to work in.

Art Liebeskind

Re: Interesting subject

Dale Lenz

>Have a 12 year old 12" DeWalt compound miter saw and when I cut my flag case miters I put on the 150 dollar Forrest blade. Then I shoot the miters with my LN bevel up jack plane. Pay off is when I don't see a joint line in my miters, only the grain change. Don't take this wrong, maybe one in four to five cases have ABSOULUTELY, perfect miter joints, all the way around. There is usually one joint that I can see the joint-line in most of my cases. Think about this: I've got six miters to shoot on a flag case, not bad you say. Well...lets make 15 cases this run, S*%^, that's 90 miters to shoot. The romance of shooting miters leave quickly! IF, I could find a miter saw that produces flawless miters, even at 1300 hundred bucks, I'd jump all over it. Actually, I did not know that Festool made a miter saw. I serious doubt, I'd purchase one because John, Paul and George said they made perfect miters, as I've said before: I'm a hard sell. Guess, I need to make a drive one of these years, to those big tool shows in Atlanta and see for myself.

Thanks for bring this up. I'll bookmark that brand in me head for future reference.

Well then I'm jealous, Art!!!!

Brian in Sandusky, OH

>

Re: Festool?

Jay St. Peter - SoMD

>I have a few Festools. Since you are in the market for a ROS, the ETS150/5 ROS is pretty much my favorite of them (tied with the circular saw). The ROS is the easiest to tell you why it is worth the money. Compared to a DW or PC ROS, it runs smooth. I have carpal tunnel and can still use the thing for hours on end. Not so with the ... well ... lesser sanders. About an hour and I need a break because I'm in serious pain. It's also a little more aggressive. Combined with the fact that it's a 6" sander, my actual time spent sanding is far less. A very good thing. Finally, the DC on it when hooked to a vac is extremely good. With the lesser sanders, the DC was pretty good as far as airborne dust goes. But when you wiped your hand over the wood it was still covered in dust.

I don't have a Rotex, but it is a different beast altogether. It performs like the ETS as a ROS, but also has an aggressive mode that performs similarly to a belt sander. Someday I'll probably get one.

Jay

Re: Festool?

Ken Krawford

>This discussion kind of reminds me of when I used to play tennis. I would take great pleasure in whippin' someone who was using a $175 state-of-the-art racquet while I played with my old $50 one.

No matter how good a tool is, it's only as good as the person using it.

Re: Maybe yes.

Robin Corell in Atascadero CA

>Most wood workers have very similar methods of working. Some will have prefrences for doing things one way and some another, The proverbial pins or tails first sort of thing. but when it comes down to it they are all doing things in much the same ways.

Everyonce in a while you find someone working very diferent from the majority. I would put myself in that catgory with my dependance on my 15" disc sander. I use my disc sander for shaping all outside curves as well as for most of my jointing needs even though I own a 6" joiner. I have been looking for a 30" sander at a good price for several years as that is the size I prefer. I am guessing I will end up paying over 2K for what I end up with. 2K for a disc sander probably falls in the same catagory as a $1300 mitere saw for most around here. If your work centered around a mitere saw rather than any other tool in the shop then the steep price would not seem so out of line.

Another point I can see in favor of the festool mitre saw is that it can be placed against a wall. For most that my not mean much but for people like me with ultra small shop spaces that can be the deciding factor on tool choice. As things stand now I have a non compound, non sliding miter saw because it takes up less space. Well that and the fact that my disc sander is more acurate for miteres.

Robin

Re: Kind of a different idea on tool value

Larry Clinton At Frankfort (Central)., Indiana

>As a hobby woodworker, there is absolutely no way I can justify my shop or tool purchases. I also can't justify my fishing gear or gun collection. Besides as my woodworking is a hobby I don't need to figure a cost payback analysis. In reality 95% of our purchases can't be justified by monetary means. I mean, a relatively used small mobile home equipped with heat would suffice to keep a person warm, dry & healthy. Cabs & buses are much more economical than owing a vehicle - and if you REALLY need a vehicle a used one makes far more economical sense. Golf clubs, fishing equipment, boats, recreational vehicles, dishwashers, TV's, stereos etc are all luxuries we buy. That said we all set priorities (at least in the middle class circle I am a member) to spend our money on those items we desire. I estimate I have spent in excess of $60M on my shop and equipment. I currently don't have any Festool equipment but probably will purchase the sander in the future. Why, because it has received rave reviews from most woodworkers that post here and I want one. I feel very sure I didn't really need the LN dovetail saw or chisel set - but I sure enjoy using them. I am in the situation of being retired. I have raised my family, all my children are in reasonable good financial positions. I own my home, vehicles and everything I have without any bills except insurance, taxes and utilities. My wife has just about anything she wants or needs, and I am lucky enough to have a reasonable savings and some disposable income without using that savings. My life wasn't always this way, 20 ~ 30 years ago I wouldn't even have looked at the expensive tools as it would have been selfish of me to use the money for that and taken it from my family.

Re: Festool?

Jim Dillon

>JL,

Interesting question and well-balanced responses (so far 8-)) describing both sides of the philosophical question. After long discussion with myself (and my better half), I purchased my first Festool a month ago. I got the Domino - a portable mortise machine. I have long been a fan of loose-tenons (as well as fixed) and concluded the Domino would be useful. I find the Domino to be incredibly well made and thought out. It is actually much heavier than I thought it would be (a good thing IMO). Saying this is just a biscuit joiner on steroids is doing the Domino a disservice. The accuracy and precision of the mortise is something to behold. If the fit between the Domino's "dominos" and mortise cheeks are what we should be striving for, then most of what I have built will be falling apart sometime soon 8-). Can mortises be cut many other ways ways. Absolutely, and I did so for 10 years - mostly with a plunge router and Bill Hylton's mortise jig. If the quality of the Domino extends through their product line, then they are worth the money - at least from a quality perspective IMHO. But, as others have said, their are many factors that go into a tool purchase, and not just quality. At present, all my routers, ROSs, shop-vacs, and miter saw are working OK and meet my needs. But if one were to fail, I might consider a Festool. Hope this helps.

Jim

Re: Interesting subject

Brian Gray in Sandusky, OH

>Interesting take.

When it comes to shooting perfect miters, and getting dead accuracy, I really think that any tool that is 'adjustable' will not fit the bill.

With a picture frame, or another miter applications with four parts....you have eight miters to cut DEAD on. If your tool is slightly off, the error will multiply times 8 in the final assembly.

I really think that the only way to do this is a miter sled on the table saw. Once you build one and tune it perfectly, you are golden.

With a tool where the angle is adjustable and you have to rely on positive stops, then I would need to see it work live in order to have any faith in it.

And even if the Festool Miter saw actually will cut dead miters every time, even after adjusting the angle, and it's PERFECTLY repeatible....it's still tough to beat the fact that you can make a miter sled from scraps and it only takes about an hour.

So I'm skeptical of the miter saw when it comes to whether it's worth the money (need to see it), but everything else from Festool is top notch.

Now this might be the exception....

Crown molding...It's a real pain to cut crown on the tablesaw.

If this saw is absolutely dead on and repeatible, then a trim carpenter would probably want this tool.

And I think that this is the market that Festool is after...not cabinetmakers.

Re: Thanks for all ya'lls thoughts...

JL

>I may have to try the random orbital sander (without the vacuum:)) when mine gives up the ghost. Sort of "ease" into it.

Re: Interesting subject

wilbur

>I think that Brian has the target market for Festool absolutely correct. If you take a look at what Festool tools seem to be very good at: portability, accuracy, and dust collection, trim carpentry/onsite installations are the very situation that they should excel at, especially if you need to leave the client's house as clean as it was before you came in to do your work.

And in fact, in Europe it seems that onsite installers/contractors are the ones that use Festool tools the most. The fact that Festool equipment can be used by hobbyist woodworkers does not mean that hobbiest woodworkers are the primary market for these tools.

In any case, I think that the one thing that Festool equipment offers that other competitors don't is really superior dust management. Whether that is worth the price premium is up to you. Personally, I think it is worth the difference, although I am towards the careful end of the concerned-about-health-effects-of-wood-dust bell shaped curve.

Re: Festool?

iew

>The problem here is not Fesstool. Its the value of the dollar against the Euro. $.64 = Euro 1.00. If the dollar and euro were equal the ms would be 33% less or about $858.00. I might be in at this price.

Re: Festool?

JohninRI

>Good Evening Gentlemen, I am a hobbyist and a Festool owner. I will say that I like quality tools and, like some before me, I cannot justify the cost of the Festool tools on payback alone. I will probably buy a Kapex this weekend and here is why: dust collection. The way I see it I have two options with this hobby of mine. I can work efficiently with power tools and accomplish a couple projects a year, or I can go "old school" and use planes, scrapers and hand saws and build a project every couple years. Both are enjoyable options. I choose the first because I need the experience. The problem with power tools is dust. Wood dust is a carcinogen and after experiencing several sinus infections, my health is worth the money. I hate dust masks. I do use dust collectors, etc., but festool tools really cut down on the dust. My 12 year old daughter is getting into woodworking and I really enjoy our time in the shop. Not having the dust is a bonus. I'll like the shavings, but the dust...well, I'll skip that. I bought my first Festool after waching a friend demonstrate sanding a rough sawn piece of cherry smooth with almost no dust using a Rotex connected to a vacuum. Now I own a bunch of Festool and I get an extra 1/2 hour in the shop because I don't have to clean up. Just my two cents. Take care and thanks for reading.

John