Forrest Woodworker II vs. Freud Fusion

Re: Forrest Woodworker II vs. Freud Fusion

Howard Acheson

>>>so am particularly interested in the thin kerf versions of these blades.

The Frued Fusion does not come in a thin kerf version at this time.

That said, I have never used a thin kerf blade on my Delta Contractor Saw in the twenty years I have had it. Just use the correct blade for the type of cut and 1.5 HP will go through anything.

Re: Forrest Woodworker II vs. Freud Fusion

Rob Overton

>Been using the WW2 on an old Craftsman saw for years. Does good work. I am about to send it off to get it sharpened. They do that real well,too.

What is it about brand loyalty or seeking

Forrest Addy

>What is it about brand loyalty or seeking "the best" saw blade. All saw blades are about the same given equality in tooth count and kerf thickness. The difference lies in the cutting edge as received from the factory. After a year in the shop all blades will dull and thereafter the quality of the cut depend on your saw sharpening service. What you buy is the inital sharpening. After that its usage and the saw shop's expertise and care that makes the different between a good saw blade and one that's not so good.

I swear and maintain the major difference in most saw bldes is the keenness of the cutting edge and the best baalancee of the tiny side clearance angle. Year's ago I bought tool town cheapos at $10 a three pack and ran them through by saw filer's shop. He sneered at them, then noted the husky carbide tips then conceded it would be interesting to see if a good blade could be made from them. $40 later I took them home and tried them. No burn, very little flutter, and smooth cut were my primary impressions. At that time the better Sears blades were going for about $45 each so I got a deal.

What I take from this recolletion is it's probably a more profitable strategy to consider a saw blade manufacturer as an initial sharpening service. If the saw blade performs well and cuts clean and smooth then the other factors - perfection of the plate etc - are moot.

By the way, Don't fall for the "fine grained carbide" scam. It's all fine grained these days. There are but 4 carbide sintering plants in the world today and they are intensly competitive. Thus carbide starter materials are commodities like corn and pork bellys and their as manufactured quality is very high and the price paid by end users is based on quality and specialzation.

Re: Forrest Woodworker II vs. Freud Fusion

Barry Irby

>Like the others that have answered, I can not directly answer your question. I have a WWII and like it a great deal. I have never used any Freud blade on my TS, but do have one on my skilsaw and like it. My WWII is not the thin kerf blade and I am running it on a Delta Contractors saw with a 2 hp motor. I have been using it at a hobbiest level for several years without resharpening it. I think it is amazing. I just ressawed two 10' 6 X 6 heart pine beams into boards. It cleaned them up so well that one light pass on each side through the planer takes the little ridge of the center where the two cuts from opposite sides of the beam met. Then, without cleaning it, used it to taper table legs and saw the rough edges off the boards. The edges were so clean and straight I have been edge gluing them without running them over the jointer.

My point is that there are only two things that would make me consider the Frued Blade. If it were significantly cheaper I might try it, but I would rather spend $100 on a known commodity than $75 on a good rival. The other thing is I would like to have a blade that cuts this well and leaves the bottom of the kerf flat. There are times when the little V left in the bottom fo the kerf bothers me.

I do have a negative rake blade on my RAS that I bought on the close out table at Lowes for $15. Night and Day. I went back for more, but alas, there were none. So, I also agree that the blades available now are so good and the carbide is so well made, that you may just get a cheap blade that does a wonderful job and at $15 I would take a whack at it, but for a $100+ I would want to know what I was buying.

If you buy the Freud blade, let us know.

Re: What is it about brand loyalty or seeking

Mike Fitterling

>If you want to buy the best "first sharpening" then check out Ridge Carbide blades. I've never seen any other blades honed to such sharpness. I have a hard time not cutting myself on the hi-atb when changing out blades. That hi-atb cuts hardwood ply like butter with no chipout.

Re: Forrest Woodworker II vs. Freud Fusion

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Unfortunately, I can't talk about the Freud either. I've had the WWII blade on my Craftsman 1.5 HP saw for about 6 months or so and I love it. Like the post above, I have to be careful not to cut myself when changing the blade. I've heard from others that Forrest does great sharpening, so I'm likely going to send my older cheapo blades to them for service.

I agree with the others that at some point, all the blades are good, short of very minor differences that may show up on paper, but not necessarily on wood. Freud and Forrest both make good blades, so you should get a decent one whichever way you go.

I believe the Kerf is a thin .098"

Art Silva

>

Amen! and a case for 8" blades

bill tindal, E.TN

>I was going to stay out of this fray but Addy inspired me. What is it about Forest blades that induces people to pay 2X more for a blade than what they need to? And then there is the baloney about how only Forest can sharpen them. Granted, they make smooth cuts and on rare occasions that is important. The disadvantage is the grind that enables these smooth cuts also gums up and dulls quicker than typical blades (see my article in Articles section on this matter). But how often is a smooth cut essential? In my shop very rarely. Everything I rip is smoothed on a jointer or with a plane. What is important is a splinter-free cross cut and that most of all demands a sharp blade (splinters are in fact the best indication that a blade has become dull, according to my reliable saw shop). About anybody's $50 10" blade will do just fine for nearly every shop task.

For the past couple of years I have gone to the extreme on cheap blades. I run an 8" "skill saw" blade on the saw. Cheap, less noise, less dust, much safer because it is not grabby, especially on thin stock. Cuts aren't smooth but this is not a problem most of the time. For a better quality cut the 8" CMT or Tenryu deliver cuts as smooth as the Forest with the all the advantages of the smaller blade. These are not the blades I would use in a production shop but they perform admirably for the few hundred feet of hardwood lumber I work each year.

Let me state again-safer. There is almost no force on the lumber with these very thin blades so that it is very easy to maintain control of the lumber. Loss of control is the major cause of injuries on the table saw.

Disclaimer- I got suckered into buying a Forest blade by their skilled salesman at IWF one year. (I have a weakness for show specials).It gummed up and dulled very quickly compared to the blades I had been using and I have been annoyed ever since at myself for buying it and Forest in general.

Re: Forrest Woodworker II vs. Freud Fusion

Rob Stokes in North Vancouver

>I just sent my Forrest TK to New Jersey for sharpening. I tossed in one of the $5 coupons and by the time I got the blade back it cost me $20 - CDN, and that included shipping to Vancouver. Pretty tough to beat.

As for blade economics, I paid $110 for that blade - seven years ago. This is it's first sharpening so at this point (with the sharpening included), my WWII is costing me less than $20/year - not bad considering that even when it was dulling I still had no trouble going from the saw to glue-up and completely bypassing the jointer.

I am curious about the new Freud though.

Rob

Freud Opinion

Lee Schierer, McKean, PA

>I have all Freud blades in my shop. They all cut really well and stay sharp nearly forever. The only problem I had with a Freud blade, I caused and Freud replaced the blade free of charge. Their laser custs in teh body of the blade make them extremely quiet and stable even dur ing long heavy cuts where the blade may heat up.

I have 60 and 80 tooth blades for crosscutting with various tooth configurations and a 24 tooth thin kerf ripping blade. My saw is a 1-1/2 Hp rated Craftsman and it does okay with heavier cuts. I've never paid more than about $40 for any of my blades as I have caught them on sale. Since I don't feel that blade change out is a pain to do I frequently change from rip to cross cut and back to get eh best cut. It's hard to justify spending $100 for a blade when you have blades that make cuts so smooth jointing or sanding is hardly required already.

Just my 2 cents worth.

lee

Nope, not for this blade......

Howard Acheson

>It's a full kerf (0.125").

Re: Freud Opinion

Ray Thompson

>I have the $50 price range Freud blades, and am very pleased with them. I have an 80 tooth blade dedicated to cutting segments for segmented turning and the sides are smooth as glass.

Same here--my WWII is in the box, going to Ridge

Henry Higginbotham

>I'll see if Ridge can regrind it into something useful. I got practically no use from my Forrest blade before it gummed up to the point of refusing to cut AT ALL, nevermind the quality. Tried cleaning, tried spray-on lubricant goop, etc., all to no avail.

Re: Amen! and a case for 8" blades

Barry Irby

>Bill, I find this very interesting. I like Forest's idea that the carbide is well made and that what you are buying is the "first sharpening". I wonder about your comments. Clearly, your Forest blade did not serve you well. Mine has. But I have also gotten good service out of cheap blades. I bought a Magna (could have been brand X for all I know) blade on the close out table at Lowes for $15 and it stayed on the saw for years. It really did yoeman's service, but did not cut nearly so smothely as the WWII that replaced it. I still ahve it and sometimes use it for rough work or where I am afraid of knocking out a tooth.

About sharpening the blades. Finding a good local shapening serivce is an experiment. You relie on your friends to recommend one. You send them your favorite blade and they send you back mangled crap. you buy a new blade and start over. If you would like, I will send you a box of hollow ground blades I sent out that returned with massive set in the teeth. As for me, I will try the Forrest resharpening service next.

I was thinking about your idea of almost always running the stock over the jointer after You cut it or hand planing it. About eighty percent of the time, I don't have to. I get glue line joints off the TS. If I went to a thinner TS blade, like a Skilsaw blade, I woudl have to joint most pieces, but then I would also have the stock to joint off, because the kerf is thinner.

What is bothering me about your comments is that I count on my WWII blade to produce nearly flawless work. Almost no splintering either rip or cross cut. If a cheaper blade were unpredictable and occasionally splintered a piece, I would have to count on it splintering every piece or, Murphy's Law sould say it would screw up the most critical piece. Hmmmm! Now I am realizing that I still make test cuts and cut the really critical pieces first to make sure they are "the best" before I relax and cut the less critical pieces.

I do like the reliability of the WWII balde in that I can make nearly any cut with it and not have to stop and change the blade to suit the cut. I make so many different cuts in a day it would get tedious. (Just look at that stupid bandsaw standing there mocking me, always having the resaw blade when I need the circle cutting blade, or is it vice versa?)

It would be even better if a blade half the price would perform as well. Which ones are they?

Re: I believe the Kerf is .098", and more..

knotscott

>I was almost positive that I read that the kerf of the Fusion was 0.098" too. I recall being pleased because that's the width I'd want. Amazon now has it listed as 1/8" (0.125") full kerf.

I haven't compared the Fusion to the WWII, but the Hi-ATB and double angle side grind do give the Fusion some advantage is cut quality....at least until it dulls. The Hi-ATB is the cleanest cutting grind if all else is equal...it's also the fastest dulling. The demo I watched was impressive.

As as blade quality goes....when I started out I had a 36T stock Delta blade that didn't give what this rookie a satisfactory cut. I went out and got a $20 Oldham 60T blade that was a huge disappointment. I then tried a Vermont American 28T ripper for $15....also a disappointment...same with a similar Skil I picked up for $7. All of these blades offered alot of resistance, saw marks, and splinters. Then I tried a Freud LU84 that was much better. ..finally a good cut! About a year later a friend gave me a WWII TK that was amazing even compared to the very good LU84.

I've since tried over 30 blades mostly out of curiosity, and I do find huge differences between the better quality blades and the cheap ones, which I now call "bludgeon blades" as they hack their way thru the wood in comparison. There's alot more to it than just tooth count. The sharpening makes a huge difference, as does the body stiffness and flatness. There are definitely bargains to be found...right now the DW7657 is on sale for $32. This is a blade that rivals my WWII....as does the Ridge Carbide TS2000, and the Tenryu Gold Medal...I'm sure there are others...possibly the Fusion, F410, Infinity Super and others. The Freud LU88 actually cuts cleaner than any of the 40 or 50T GP blades I've used and still rips respectably well....$36 on sale right now. To get a better cut than the WWII, you typically need to take the leap to dedicated specialty blades...but even then you need to stick with higher quality or the cut suffers. A good 80T crosscut will definitely leave a cleaner cut than the WWII, but it'll burn easily and bog down on rip cuts.

It's important to note that many manfactureres make multiple lines at different price and quality levels, so it's not really valid to compare brand name alone unless they only have one line...like Forrest, Ridge Carbide, and Infinity. Freud, Tenryu, and DeWalt make several quality levels...some excellent, some not. It's also very important to select the right blade for the right job. Choosing a Forrest ripping blade for crosscutting would surely yield a splintered cut. Equally important is the saw itself, and it's setup....is there a ZCI? Is it flat? Is the fence parallel? Does the saw vibrate? Does the arbor have runout? All these factors affect the cut. A lesser saw will mask the subtle differences between blades.

I could easily live with the offerings from Ridge Carbide, Forrest, Freud's better lines, DW's better lines, Leitz, Ridgid, Infinity, Tenryu, and probably many others that I haven't tried. I do stray from the cheapie blades...BTDT. I don't need the ultimate edge on every cut, but most of the better blades I've tried are capable of a glue ready edge.