Electric

I'd call Sparky

Scott in Eastern Iowa

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Re: Electric

Jim Swank

>It's more likely a loose wire than a short, though laymen use the terms interchangeably. If it's truly any lights, it's probably on the neutral on the service drop or meter base. That's even more likely if the service drop is aluminum, as it commonly is. If that sounds like greek, call a licensed electrician, and don't delay! Loose wires can heat up and cause fires. If what I said makes perfect sense, you understand electricity and wiring, but just haven't seen this before, go fix it.

Check to be sure it isn't aluminum wiring

Don Henthorn

>Hf it is you will need to work on every connection in the place. Most of the connections will likely be loose and corroded. Google it if you need help for this.

Re: Check to be sure it isn't aluminum wiring

Bill Howatt

>Why would you say that? I had a house which was over 25 yrs old when I sold it with both aluminum and copper wirirng and guess what, the one bad neutral connection I had was on a copper wire. There was never any trouble with the Al wiring, not a speck of corrosion but you have to be more careful when you install and handle it and for that reason I would not use it if I had a choice. If all aluminum wiring is nothing but a source of grief then it is amazing the lights are still on in the world since utilities use a huge amount of aluminum.

Bill

Re: Electric

Lee Schierer, McKean, PA

>A number of years ago a friend of ours moved into a double wide trailer and had the same problem with some of the lights. What we found after a long search was a junction box, accessible only from under the trailer where the wires from the one side were connected to the wires from the other side. One of the connections was loose and was causing all the problems. There were 3 or 4 of these cross over junction boxes under the trailer.

Lee

Re: Electric

jmohnike

>In my day job as an insurance agent, in Calif. I have access to may fire and mobile home insurance companies. Every one of the as the same question about Alum. wireing. If the box is marked yes, the application is rejected, too may problems in the past.

I had a similar problem with the wireing in my shop, I checked everything and could not find any problems. I decided that it might a problem with a breaker so I replaced it. The old one showed signs of arcing at the bus bar connection (no damage to the bar). I compared the replaced unit (Zynsco) with a new one both were identical, mod#, amps etc. Howerver there was a difference in how they were made, the replaced one as apx. 1/8" longer at the locking bar which could have caused the problem by not allowing it to seat properly.

Re:Aluminum problems

Larry Clinton At Frankfort (Central)., Indiana

>Bill, I also am against using aluminum wiring on INDOOR applications. I worked as a manufacturing Engineer for about 40 years & I did electrical work on the side for over 30 years. The issues I have with Aluminum wire are : Oxides, chlorides, or sulfides of the base metal are much more conductive for copper than aluminum. This fact makes cleaning and protecting the joints for aluminum connections much more important. Aluminum expands nearly one third more than copper under changing temperatures. This expansion, along with the ductile nature of aluminum, has caused some problems when bolted connections are improperly installed. To avoid joint loosening, some type of spring pressure connection is necessary. Using either cupped or split washers provides the necessary elasticity at the joint without compressing the aluminum. Note: I have seen the "spring" feature disabled due to simple over tightening of the screw holding the wire. This can distort the "spring mechanism" and cause it to act like a solid connector.

Many outlets, breakers and light fixtures are changed or repaired by personnel that are unaware of the connector compatibility issue. I know, I know, this isn't aluminum wires fault - but it happens often and problems are completely avoided by using copper wire. Almost all outlets, switches, light fixtures and breakers use copper for the conductors. Many of the connections are not rated nor intended for attachment to aluminum wire. Again the use of these fixtures cause the failure not the aluminum wire but.... how many people change these without the proper knowledge of aluminum problems. Aluminum is very soft, and also less conductive than copper. If the same size wiring is used IE: 14 gage for 15 amp circuits, the aluminum will heat when a near full load is applied. I have personally viewed several outlets with aluminum that appeared to be installed per code that had intermittent connections. The cause appeared to be that the aluminum heated, expanded then when the circuit was turned off, contracted and became intermittent. This condition worsens every time the circuit is loaded as the loose connection arcs, and some material is lost. The wire then expands and the circuit again carries the load. After a few cycles the arcing becomes sufficient to either burn the wire off or start a fire. The utility companies do not have this issue, all work is done by fully trained personnel. Also the heat generated by the wire is dissipated in the outdoor environment. I did contract work for Sears during the time the Hunt bros. caused the high copper prices / shortages several years ago. I refused to install aluminum at that time due to my fear of later problems. About a year later, Sears issued a memo to all stores stating that aluminum wire could no longer be used in any installation. They went so far as to state they would not honor a warranty on air conditioners etc. installed with aluminum. I have seen 1 house trailer with more that 6 outlets nonfunctional due to aluminum wire failure at the outlet connection. I refused to work on the unit. I have had the electrical drop from the utility company become intermittent at a splice to the copper drop line at the electrical entrance of my own home. This was a professionally installed properly rated splice. In my opinion the ONLY advantage to using aluminum is cost. In view of the many issues and failures I have seen the savings is not justifiable. It only takes one arcing joint to start a fire that burns down your home. At that time it won't help to determine the defective connection was due to improper connection of the aluminum wire. Attached is a table I copied from a professional site outlining the differences in the metals. In no case other than cost is aluminum a better choice.

Table 2: Five Characteristic Differences Between Copper and Aluminum

Characteristic Aluminum Copper

Coefficient of Expansion per �C x 10-6 at 20�C 23 16.6

Thermal Conductivity BTU/ft/hr/fft2/�F at 20�C 126 222

Electrical Conductivity %IAS at 20�C 61 101

Tensile Strength ib/in2 (soft) 12,000 32,000

Count Me Against Aluminum, Too (or is that 3?)

Robert Hutchins

>Back in the 60's and 70's - when copper was experiencing one of it's price soars as it is today - many developers went to aluminum wiring with the blessing of local codes and inspectors. However, they didn't sufficiently train or supervise the laborers who actually installed the wiring (and we all know how tough it is to make a living in the trades even cutting corners); and, as a result, far too many homes became fires waiting to happen. It was bad enough that insurance actuaries jumped into the fray. Many municipalities reacted by banning new installations of aluminum, but (as will happen with political footballs) no one was required to reinspect - much less reinstall - wiring in the houses with hapless occupants. That there weren't lots of deaths was attributed to luck and margins for error.

I, for one, would never buy a house with aluminum wiring because too few electricians are adequately trained - or supervise their help well enough - (sorry, Sparky, but you know who they are) and because Joe Diy might have done who knows what before you got there. Do you know any inspectors who actually check every connection on every new house? If you do, please introduce me.

Re:Aluminum problems

Bill Howatt

>Hi Larry,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I don't disagree with the wisdom of using copper over aluminum and I also would avoid a house that had aluminum if I were in the market again. In the house I had with the aluminum you could see that all connections were made very carefully to the outlets and the wire was larger than the equivalent copper for the circuit rating.

What I did disagree with was the alarmist condemnation of all aluminum wiring in the post I was responding to.

Bill

Re: Count Me Against Aluminum, Too (or is that 3?)

Barry Irby

>As a Home Inspector, I constantly see houses with aluminum wiring. As mentioned above they were built in the late 60's and early 70's and they are still haunting us today. There have been hundreds of fires associated with aluminum wiring. Some insurance companies are not insuring them.

As the problems with aluminum emerged, the industry responded by producing switches and outlets that had larger screws that were made of metals that were more compatible with aluminum. Those were labeled CU/AL. Later they were improved to include teeth or serrations under the heads of the screws and labeled COP/ALR. There was also a screwdriver that was to be used to assure the screws were tightened correctly. There was a ratchet or release in the screwdriver that clicked and released the shaft when you reached twenty inch/pounds of torque. The screwdrivers cost about twenty bucks.

I suspect that there were so many problems because many of the workers did not use the screwdrivers and did not properly tighten the connections and that many of them used cheaper switches and outlets rated for copper only. As with any systems, if you don't use the matching components, there will be trouble.

I think the borgs still carry the switches and outlets, but they are on the bottom shelf and cost two or three buck each as opposed to less than fifty cents for the ones for copper. Also, there are no wire nuts that are suitable for joining copper to aluminum, so installing a ceiling fan can turn into a fire. So, Not only are there old defects in these systems, handy home owners are building them in as we speak.