OT: Tankless Water Heaters

About the only one......

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>I'm not sure if you read my horror story posted a while back, but from experience, the only one you can buy around here that you're allowed to install youself is the Bosch, and Homedepot had so many people return them they stopped carrying them. Any of the otehr brands will void the warranty if you don't have their techs install it.

The Bosch I had was a complete piece of junk. Very sophisicated but a real lemon. Even a good support system of pro's weren't able to explain the problems, other than "they" do that sometimes.

I've done alot of plumbing and am not a newby by any means. And although the model I bought did verge on rocket science, they aren't too difficulat to install. Perhaps less than a furnace, but more than a tank water heater, or dishwasher or about any other appliance in your house. AN electric water heater or gas fired tank heater is much easier to instal, if that's any comparison. I found that I spent a huge amount of time reading the manuals and consulting others. Partly because of inconsitancies in the manuals relating to code. The water plumbing is the easy part, the air input, exhaust and gas requirements can be very tricky. I doubted my abilities and suspected my own fault after the thing ddn't work, but was relived after consulting with some experienced pros and was assured I did everything correctly, to the point of overkill.

Judging from how much other's like there's I'm still disapointed we didn't get one to work out. I still love the idea. But it will be a long time before I touch another Bosch AquaStar. Perhaps the smaller unit which was MUCH more basic in design would have done better, but the expensive larger one with the NASA module inside was too tempermental. Perhaps the other manufatures are right in demanding that there's only be installed by trained techs. I think if things work out, you're fine, but if one module in the machine is causing a problem it's a nightmare to diagnose and resolve.

I think you'll find that I'm about the only one with a negative experience with these, and I think I just had really back luck with a lemon. Had I zigged, instead of zagged, at the store, I may have grabbed the unit in the box beside the one I took and the whole story could have been different.

Happy Woodworking!

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

DB

>If you are good with plumbing and electricity you should have no problem with installing an electric tankless water heater your self. Just be sure to check the warrenty first. Requires a 100 amp circuit.

As for installing the tankless in line with a storage tank water heater I ask you WHY? You are just defeating the purpose of the tankless water heater which is to give you a continous supply of hot water.

Not so.

Jason Roehl in Mulberry, IN

>While many tankless manufacturers recommend against installing another heater "behind" the tankless, there are reasons one might. One, low flow through the tankless can cause it to not fire. Frequent on/off cycles cause cold "plugs" in the water line--both of these are buffered by having a small tank, electric water heater inline. Electric water heaters are inefficient at heating up water, but they are the most efficient option for storing water at temperature. I see many higher-end homes with a 50-gallon gas feeding into a 50-gallon electric.

I spent Turkey Day at my sister's. They, a week before, had a Rennai installed. With 13 of us (7 adults, 2 teens, 4 kids) staying in the house, there was hot water for all, even with 2 showers going.

Jason

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

J. Robison

>I flirted with the idea of a tankless heater when our current heater dies but I realized that it truly wouldn't save much money. My gas bill in August is a little over $20. Even if it cut my gas consumption for the heater by half, it would take a long time to recover the savings. We have a 40-gal. tank with 2 adults showering regularly with 2 kids that will start showering more regularly in the next couple of years so our usage will go up.

I saw them install a tankless heater on Ask This Old House......it was a LOT of piping and shutoffs. It wasn't done by Richard, it was a crew of 3-4 guys. It may not be beyond your capabilities but maybe beyond what you can do in a day or two.

I think they're a great technology but may not provide the savings you desire.

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Tom Stockton

>I have an old style aqua star real simple works well and am happy. Neighbore have a takugchi(sp) works better and is real sophisticated and more expensive. they love it. The only part about installs is some require a 3/4 gas pipe to feed the thing and a lot of houses have 1/2.

Tom

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Robert Simmons

>We looked into getting one when we put the addition on last year and decided against it. Installation was going to be problematic and it didn't look like it would save us enough money to be worth the trouble and expense.

Robert

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Thanks all for your input.

It was kind of a wild hair idea after having the hot water run out a little early on a couple of cold mornings.

Seems a lot more than I care to deal with.

Thanks much

Mark

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

ScottS

>I have a buddy who recently built a new house and spared no expense. As part of the build, he installed two Rinnai (I *think*) tankless water heaters. He had lots of problems with them at first, and he plumber wasn't exactly happy about having to come back to do all the repairs. He used to tell people he was happy he'd purchased two units, because one of them was always on the fritz! Eventually, Rinnai had the plumber replace all of the solenoids in both units which seems to have solved the problems; he hasn't had any problems since. Were he to do it over again, he said he might go with the Takagi brand which seems to have more dealers in our area.

When I looked into getting one, the install was going to be a bit tricky. I'd have to upgrade my gas line from 1/2" to 3/4" to supply enough gas. And change the 3" vent used by my conventional gas water heater into the 4" vent needed by the tankless. Every tankless heater that I looked at had these same requirements, so I eventually ended up going with a regular 40-gallon tank.

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Rick in Colgate, Wi

>About 8 years ago I installed an electric undersink heater for my mother in her kitchen, she's loved the instant hot water ever since.

Dont recall the brand name but it did require a 60amp circuit and was simple to install.

Rick

You can get small ones

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>You can get small ones from between 2.5-gallons to 6-gallons for under the sink that use a 15A 120V circuit. They are very handy.

The only problem is that while you are using the 2 (or whatever gallons) of hot water, the tank is filling up with very cold water from the pipes.

So before we got 1 minute of very cold water followed by endless hotwater. Now we get an instant 1-2 minutes of hot water, followed by 1 minute of cool water, followed by endless hot water.

Thsi has become a pain in the kitchen so I'm think of moving that 2.5 gallon to the bathroom sink where we typically need only 30-60 seconds of hot water. And put a 6 gallon under the kitchen sink.

Happy Woodworking!

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Paul Leuba

>Our kitchen and powder room sinks are about a 25' - 35' run respectively from our 52 gallon electric hot water heater. I became tired of having to run the hot water in these two sinks for 30+ seconds before hot water arrived, leaving 25 - 35' of soon to be cool hot water in the copper line when the spigot was turned off.

I installed 2 electric point hot water heaters with 30 amp circuits under each sink to provide a 70 degree rise in water tempurature at about to 2 qts a minute. The approx 120 degree water is just right for hand washing and kitchen hot water use. We do not use this water for dishwashing because the dishwasher, clothes washer and showers are all run off the central 52 gallon hot water heater.

So, we have instant hot water within 18" of the spigot in the kitchen and the powder room, and the larger appliances served by the central unit. It works for us, my wife and I, and in addition to the convenience, I believe it saves a little money on the monthly bill.

Paul in Hunt Valley, MD

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

r payne

>We've got a Bosch LPG heater, the big one. Works great- so long as the vent pipe has enough rise to draw properly. When it was first installes the idiot plumber and contractor ignored the manuel on this even though neither had ever installed one before. It didn't want to stay lit. They weren't happy about having to come out to try to fix the problem and didn't want to listen to me when I told them what the problem was. After I showed them the vent didn't have enough rise, I called them idiots and told them to fix it right.

THe Bosch has a 15 year warrenty (I think that is for the major components). Even if it saves just a few dollars a month over the life of the heater it will more than pay for itself.

It never runs out of hot water.

It really isn't any harder to install than a tanked heater. Here it is illegal to install a gas appliance unless you are certified or else I'd do it myself.

I think they are worth it and these days they aren't much more that a big tanked heater and there is (or was last year) a tax break for installing one here in the US.

ron

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Bob Falk

>I can plumb, but am no plumber. I installed a Bosch myself and it was fairly easy, though i too had trouble with it and the dealer had to replace the unit after much hassle....these units work well to supply continuous hot water, but for interminent use (such as at a kitchen faucet), they suck...slugs of cold water and long waits for hot water as was mentioned. I believe the ideal set up is a tankless with a plumbing loop with a small (5-10 gal) highly insulated electic hot water heater and a timed cirulating pump that will keep the loop warm for intemitent use....I doubt I would do it again, though it has saved $.

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Charles Self

>"Requires a 100 amp circuit."

Holy smokes! That's more than my heat pump and water heater need combined, now. In fact, it's more than the 90 amp electric furnace I used to use in my shop. My house, and shop, each have 200 amp boxes, but I absolutely know I'd have to install a second panel in either one to add a 100 amp circuit. And what size is the cable? That could be murderously expensive, too.

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Barry Irby

>You said "Here it is illegal to install a gas appliance unless you are certified or else I'd do it myself."

That's interesting. I believe that here (VA) you can do the work for yourself. Sort a homestead or self sufficiency exemption from the code requirements that the work be done by 'card carrying' contractors.

OTOH, doing it yourself might void the warranty on the device. Bosch wants idiots that never read the instructions to install them.

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Bill White

>Rheem is makin' a good one. Several sizes. For the gas models ya gotta know what you're doin'.

Stats say that there is about a 6 to 7 year payback (cost vs: savings). Don't forget to factor the $300.00 tax deduct.

Bill

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Paul Leuba

>For kitchen and bathroom faucets I have found the electric instant hot water heaters installed directly under the faucet to be effective, convenient and efficient. Then, the larger central unit can be used to supply the large use appliances and shower where a little wait for the first hot water is not inconvenient.

Paul in Hunt Valley, MD

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters - OK Guys...

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>My original point was that I got tired of being the one in the shower when the cold water starts dumping into the water heater. I think I have gotten educated on the tankless solutions.

How about alternatives - larger capacity? (we have a pretty big one, though I do not know the capacity (I am at work)) - p\Preheater on the cold water side - like one of the sink units? Another Water Heater in series with the old one?

I am just getting to the point in my life where I have decided that I do not need to put up with this sort of annoyance.

Thanks

Mark

Re: What we did...

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>It's been maybe three or four years ago now, so someof the details are fuzzy. The son of ours who used to take very long, very hot showers was still living here then. And maybe his younger brother, too. I know that at least one other son had his wife bringing laundry over, because that was better than doing theirs at the apartment complex.

The small one blew out, leaking in the garage shop badly. Turns out it was old, too, and when we pulled it out, full of sediment. We ended up replacing the mess with a big, 50 gallon, California code compliant gas burning monster, and have not run out of hot water again since. It doesn't hurt that the boys have their own places now, and only one daughter-in-law brings her laundry, because she brings a darling granddaughter with her when she comes over.

It still takes a short while to get the cold water plug out of the lines when we start up, because I'm not going to climb under the house and insulate all of the hot water lines. Cold lines there are not the water heater's problem. Copper loses heat to the colder air.

I'm happy with the for all intents and purposes unlimited hot water at relatively low tech costs. I'll scrimp elsewhere.

80 Gallon electric

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>We had a 40 (IIRC gas heater) which lasted a few years, so I replaced that with another 40 (50?) gallon gas and that only lasted a few years. Replacing water heaters was gettign tiring, and the costs/estimates of replacing a chimney $2500+ made me look real hard at a chinmentless solution. The Bosch should have been perfect but wasn't. The electric 80 gallon heater takes up a bit more room, but it's been flawless. And althought it's ahrd to compare, might actually cost a bit less than the previous two gas heaters.

I think the most we've had is 4 showers in a row when we'd had guests over, no shortage of water. My wife taks short showers, but I've been know to fall asleep standing up (you get tired after a few nights of 2-3 hours of sleep) and have been accused of taking 30 minute showers.

Happy Woodworking!

BTW - Mine is 56 Gal

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>

Re: OT: Tankless Water Heaters

Bob Fawcett

>1) If you can do basic plumbing and wiring (i.e. replace your own water heater), can you install your own Tankless Water Heater?

Yes. I installed mine myself.

2) Anyone use one in-line/as a supplement to a regular hot water heater (electric)?

No mine is the only hot water heater in the house. I use propane. I also have a cooktop and gas logs on the propane. My heater is so efficient I now get over 1 year on a tank of propane. It will run 7 gpm of hot water forever. I even used it to fill my pool so we could get in soon after it was built. The pool holds almost 20,000 gallons.

3) Worth the cost and trouble?

Definitely.

4) Or should I just add capacity to the existing water heater? We have the current one on a timer.

For my money, I would do the tankless again. I have a Takagi.