Wood working shows

pay to get in...

Joe Piotrowski - Chicago Burb's

>you forgot about parking cost also!

the first few I went to, I was new to all the available "stuff" for me to purchase. the next year I new I had to by "x" amount of stuff to make the trip worth while.

with less and less vendors attending shows I can't justify going to window shop. I will do it occasional out of boredom or to see a demonstration of something I want to get into. the last 5 years I have gone maybe one for an afternoon. I did get a nice Freud CMS blade deal and that was worth the trip only because I needed one.

as for big Iron, I always get better prices on Jet stuff at rockler. they have a sale ever year before the wood show.

one thing I would like to see is sales tied in with demo's. I would love to go to a Pen turning demo, learn the technique and have the opportunity to buy a package right then.

I could see two packages. one with a lathe, one without. I recall seeing a demo and the guy was good. he did it a little differently than some pen turning books did.

now a good portion of us watching it never turned before so this was more than a demo. I would have loved to just go and buy the particular tools he used. after all his technique was the only one I knew.

I would have bough it and lathe right then. I would not have to shop around for all the tools wich you may find there or not.

I went to a demo by marc adams? maybe. but in it he was doing biscuit jointing and had custo made jig that lined everything up for him.

now I not going to go right away and sign up for the week long schooling classes. this was a free demo how ever I would have paid for a separate class to discuss this jog and get the plans for it. I would certainly pay 25 bucks to get some better understanding of a tool I seldom use.

the real problem is it's like a flea market. if I want to buy a router table I have to look around at 20 booths and pick out the right one.

there is just not enough marketing material to look at. isle ways are blocked by people watching demos at the booth and it hard to move around.

also the floor space is shrinking every year. it seams every gets x amount of space per booth. maybe that space should be opened up and better planned. booth demo's should be better planned to alleviate traffic. it's not that hard. left side of isle get the on the hour time slots and the right side gets the 1/2 hour. cross isles should be non demonstration booths.

just what I see at the Chicago stop.

Re: Interesting discussion...

albertabob

>DC.

I pretty mushc agreee with nyour summary but let me be D/A for a sec.

You said:

"I'll keep on attending the show, but it looks like I won't buy more machinery there. "

So here we have the Mexican Stand off:

DC wants to go to the show to see the range of tools first hand and quite possibly gather purchasing info.

So far to good.

The vendor wants to go to the show and increase his sales with "value Added" merchandising.

He rents a booth and pays out $1500.00 then hauls people and product to the venue, pays for the additional costs- ( $1500.00 TO $2500.00)

My question is ... how does he recoup these input costs if the consumer orders from Amazon?

The short answer is the little guy doesn't count.

The big answer is ...we are all little guys.

"First they came for the ..." but I was not one of them.

Bob

Re: Interesting discussion...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>DC.

I pretty mushc agreee with nyour summary but let me be D/A for a sec.

You said:

"I'll keep on attending the show, but it looks like I won't buy more machinery there. "

So here we have the Mexican Stand off:

DC wants to go to the show to see the range of tools first hand and quite possibly gather purchasing info.

So far to good.

The vendor wants to go to the show and increase his sales with "value Added" merchandising.

He rents a booth and pays out $1500.00 then hauls people and product to the venue, pays for the additional costs- ( $1500.00 TO $2500.00)

My question is ... how does he recoup these input costs if the consumer orders from Amazon?

The short answer is the little guy doesn't count.

The big answer is ...we are all little guys.

"First they came for the ..." but I was not one of them.

Bob

I see your point, yet...

I may be an unusual bird, but I research my potential purchases quite thoroughly before going to the show (or at a store, for that matter), and at the risk of sounding conceited, I usually know more about the product I'm inquiring about than the person who's trying to sell it to me. When I see DeWalt reps gloat year after year about the quality of cut of their DW735 planer, make a test cut on a board, and it comes out crappy, and they seem happy with the result, that tells me one thing, they don't know butkus about the stuff they are trying to sell. No different from the car salespeople I've had to deal with over the years (I've had to correct them on various specs and features of the vehicle they were trying to sell me!).

If the dealers at a show want to sell me something, they'll have to demonstrate that 1. they know their product (that's their job, right?), and 2. that they have experience with using said product. For all I know, I get much better information from reading magazines and getting first-hand experience from our local association's fellow woodworkers...

The fact that a dealer sets up a booth at a WW show doesn't make me eat up their "gospel"... When did you last hear from a booth employee that the competitor's machine is a better deal than what they carry?... I'm trying hard, but I can't recall such an occurence...

If machinery dealers want to get my pesos, they will need to earn them...

DC

WoodWorks has it right

David Yoho

>I believe the days of low priced specials on tools at woodworking shows is about gone for reasons already mentioned. I still like to see and "kick the tires" of potential purchases up close when a particular tool manufacturer is present. However, I no longer go to these events with buying in mind like I once did.

I truly believe the WoodWorks shows has the right formula for success and delivers a better "product" due to their emphasis on education and the up-close demos by master woodworkers in their field.

The Sawdust Caf� is a nice idea, which showcases local woodworker's work. In the Make-A-Memory Workshop, parents and children can share time together making a project. There are other features at their shows, too, that demonstrate different areas of the craft, like turning and using hand tools. I think there's something for everyone with an interest in woodworking at WoodWorks.

In past years I've driven over five hours one way several times to attend their show and was glad I did. I came away with useful information, met and made new friends, was re-energized with new inspiration, learned new techniques, and picked up some shop accessories I needed. I've been to the competitor's shows and just don't think they measure up to what Woodworks offers.

Just my opinion,

David

Re: Wood working shows

Steve in Bethlehem, Pa.

>Mike,

Maybe show attendance would increase if wood working shows were combined with another popular hobby, like scrap booking for example. Now there is one show attracting 2 markets. Take it 1 step further and have something for the kids - maybe some kind of play land and arcade area. That way, it becomes a family event.

Hopefully, a larger vendor attended show would keep admission prices low. Child's admission would help pay for their entertainment. If I'm looking to make a big tool purchase, my wife is right there to not only see the tools, but maybe a demo and a gallery of things that were made with them. My kids would also be there, and would get exposure to all of the elements of wood working - not just the things I make in my shop. Have workshops for the kids - build a bird house or something. Give the big tool manufactures a chance to plant some seeds for future customers.

I agree with you that "great show deals" are gone. Having more under one roof would hopefully get the younger crowd there. As for others, maybe offer a shop full of tools to guess the EXACT amount of biscuits in the back of pick-up. I've been told that insurance policies for contests like that are fairly inexpensive. Shows held during the 1st quarter of the year can have tax people on hand to apply your tax return toward a purchase at the show. Maybe vendors can create special financing for "at the show" purchases.

For me, going to shows has been about inspiration as much as buying and learning. Anytime I get to see someone making something - especially live - it makes me want to head straight to my shop, even if it's just to plan or tinker.

Steve Marino

Thanks from Mike Re: Wood working shows

mike from American Sycamore

>I want to thank everyone for their time and some great suggestions and insight. I am going to do my best to help improve the shows.

Mike

WoodWorks goofed in Columbus, OH...

Joe Pack

>A couple (three?) years ago, WoodWorks held a show in Columbus, Ohio, the only time, to my knowledge, they have come to Ohio. From conversation with a lady representing the show, I know they were disappointed in attendance on the Saturday I was there. I suggested that there was not so much wrong with the show, the venue or the interest of area woodworkers, but the fact that they scheduled their show on the same weekend that Ohio State and Michigan were playing in Columbus!!!

Oddly, the lady I talked with discounted that idea and indicated they would not be back because "there doesnt seem to be much interest in this area." Folks, if Moses had come down from the mount carrying two tablets that day, NOBODY in Ohio would have been there to greet him --- they would be parked in front of their TVs watching their beloved Buckeyes.

I thoroughly enjoyed the WoodWorks format, and would love to see them back in Ohio. Just don't try to compete with Ohio State football. :-)

Re: Thanks from Mike Re: Wood working shows

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>Last fall was the first time I haven't gone in maybe 5 years. Twice a year - April and October.

The vendor sponsored demos are the best. Folks come and do a one hour or 90 minute demo, and answer questions, show methods, and sell a book or three, maybe some longer classes. These are things I don't get at the local woodworkler's store. They are things I get at the local woodworkers' club where I've belonged for 6 or 7 years.

I usually bring home a little something from the folks at LN, saving enough on their discount to pay the sales taxes. But that tool chest is getting full, and there are projects backed up in the shop and in the yard. We may not go in April, either.

But it would be great to get to one of your classes, or another like it here on the west coast. Just keep after it! Industries and people change.

Re: Wood working shows

Larry Clinton At Frankfort (Central)., Indiana

>Mike, I attended the Indy show - I did tour your booth, very nice items on display. My issues with the shows are much like several have stated. No big iron or machines to look at. I understand that the booth rental and expense of maintaining same is above the return most retailers can expect in return. However, Delta, Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, etc. all make the same money from sales of their equipment whether Rockler, Amazon or Woodcraft sells it. They are the ones that should be exhibiting the equipment (with knowledgeable personnel manning the booths). I went to the Indy show with $3,000 cash - wanting to purchase a 20" or so bandsaw. The only large saws I saw on display were an 18" Delta Industrial and an 18" Shopfox. I know you rep Delta, but I was very disappointed with the play in the table on the Delta saw. It looked to me like the trunnion was either defective or it is a poor design, as I could flex the table easily by putting a small amount of force on the guide rod for the fence. It may have been an assembly issue but I decided not to purchase a Delta. The Shopfox 18" did look good and the rep offered me a good deal on the saw, but I was wanting to purchase a 20" or larger. Guess I will use the internet. I attended the show with my wife and youngest son (35 yrs +), he is becoming a pretty good woodworker and will eventually have my shop. I will continue to attend the shows because of people like you and the other woodworking club booths. I have purchased equipment at the shows before, but doubt I will again unless there is an incentive to do so.

Promoters 2 cents on Wood working shows

jonathanfrank

>Hello everyone here. I hope you don't mind me adding yet another perspective to this discussion, I represent the 'other side' of the story, a show producer.

I respect and admire all the woodworkers who frequent WC and I offer my opinion out of concern for this community. There have been numerous, insightful suggestions and observations offered over the past few days, but allow me to point out, this topic is not new to WC, nor is this discussion taking place in a cyber vacuum, with no one on the outside listening.

As a show producer, I understand how and why many of you feel a disconnect between what you want/need and what you perceive as lacking in shows. Little would be gained by me attempting to persuade you, so I won't try to, at least not with words. But perhaps you might be convinced if you attended one of our shows. PEOPLE make a difference, that is a fundamental law in every business, and it is no less important in a woodworking business.

For the record, my wife(referred to by Joe Pack in this thread), who is also my partner and me own and produce the 'other' consumer woodworking shows. We are not a large corporaton, nor do we produce shows that some one else manages remotely. As a team of two, we pour every ounce of energy into each show, with the sole objective of making the experience for the woodworker as positive as it can be.

My background spans 20 years in the show industry, including a 10 year stint with the World's Largest Flower Show in Philadelphia, Show Manager of The American Woodworker Show, Director of Shows for The Woodworking Shows and for the past 5 years, owner/producer of my own shows, which out of respect for the rules at WC, I will not mention or plug. I believe our show does provide alternatives to the same old, same old. The Guest Book on our web site supports that claim. And if you have been to one of our shows, you might agree, many of the legends of woodworking are there to talk shop, inspire and teach, with NO commercial attachments.

No matter which side of this issue you are on, I would ask you to consider my insider perspective, then see if you still hold the same belief. Shows have been around for a long time, not just woodworking shows; some are great one year, not very good the next and appeared out of nowhere and vanished just as fast. The American Woodworker Show was such a show. For those of you who may remember that show or possibly attended it in the early days, you might recall how special it was. But, after only a few short seasons it was gone forever. I'll close with a question, would NO shows better, is having no bread really better than a half loaf?

Thanks for hearing me out, and for those who remain unconvinced, I can only say, we will keep working to improve our shows until one day we can satisfy everyone. And if you have suggestions that can improve our show, please let us know, we do listen, we are a part of the woodworking community and we do care.

Re: Promoters 2 cents on Wood working shows

Mac in Indy

>Jonathan,

Like Joe in Ohio I think the one time you came to Indy was not a true example of what an Indy show wound be like. It was scheduled in the Fall on a weekend of the Rockville Covered Bridge Festival plus it was an absolutely beautifull weekend weatherwise so the crowd was not that good. I loved the format of the show with the instructors up front and with out additional charge. I know Mike and American Sycamore was involved that year. I do think you have a better show format so keep up the work and try bringing the show to Indy again sometime.

mac

WoodWorks has a great concept

Joe Pack

>Hello Jonathan,

I thoroughly enjoyed the format of the only show of yours I was able to attend. On that day I had volunteered to cover the WoodCentral display area for a period of time. My relief person had some sort of emergency that prevented them from getting there, so I ended up spending the entire day keeping an eye the WoodCentral display area. I What little of the show I did get to see was impressive. I had a chance to talk with Bill Hylton who stopped by to say hello, and, because he was close by, to talk with Mike from American Sycamore quite a bit. I'm sure they don't remember me, but I certainly enjoyed talking with them. This kind of interaction is exactly what I am looking for in a show, along with being able to play with toys I would otherwise only see in catalogs.

I hope you schedule another WoodWorks show within reasonable driving distance of north-central Ohio. I would love to attend.

Re: Wood working shows - my take

Carol from AZ

>There at least four points of view here. The show promoter, the vendor, the attendee, and the presenter. I was one of the latter for a half dozen years.

There ain't no free lunch for anybody here. The parking fee goes to whoever owns/manages the parking lot, not into the promoter's pocket. The admission fee doesn't even begin to pay for the hall the event is in. The vendors' fees have to be recovered in sales, with a profit, or the vendor isn't going to come back. The presenter doesn't take time off from regular work to go to a show for free. All costs eventually drop to the consumer, in everything you buy.

You pay the parking fee to conveniently park your car. You pay the admission fee because there is lots to see and learn that does not cost you extra. You pay the outrageous price for awful hot dogs because you got hungry. You buy the item at the show because you got a chance to touch and feel. Maybe you also don't have to pay shipping costs. That would be a bonus.

The dates for the shows are locked in at least a year in advance. Games and other community events dates aren't always known at that time and it isn't to the exhibit hall's advantage to let the promoter know what his event will be up against. To them it is another date filled on their calendar. No need to remark on the weather.

As for incompetent help, if it is a brick and mortar store also, more than likely the regular help is back at the store holding the fort, with some regular help and lots of temps at the show. Get a temp who doesn't know the answer to your questions, ask for the boss.

Every business and every business person, including those of us who are presenters, must make money to stay in business. You want it that way, especially with your own employer. If your business didn't, then you are out of work and on the unemployment line. Enough people there already. A contrary view here is very naive.

I personally think it should be called a 'show' because that is what it is. We go to be entertained, to learn something, to enjoy those around you, and to feel good about something you enjoy. As a bonus, we get the opportunity to purchase a new toy, sorry, TOOL, to take home with us.

I also personally think that WoodWorks offers a better 'SHOW' than the Woodworking Show. But that's me. I personally know Jonathan and have worked with him and Judy. I turned down an offer with the other show for presenting because I was not comfortable with the existing management at the time.

I do know many of the regular vendors of both shows. I call tell you they all keep statistics that tell them whether they want to do certain shows or not. You vote with your feet by not coming if you don't like what is offered and when it is offered. So do they. If their records show your city didn't do well by them, they won't be back.

If you want a more commercially oriented show, then go to Atlanta or Las Vegas, depending in the year. It will cost you bunches more, but there will be lots more vendors, show specials, and the big boys show up.

I'd say that would be my 2 cents worth, but it more like a quarter's worth! LOL.

Carol, who happened to be at the Indy show last weekend.

Re:WoodWorks show

Larry Clinton At Frankfort (Central)., Indiana

>I really enjoyed the WoodWorks show when it came to Indianapolis. I understand your not returning due to the low turnout. However, there were several factors that caused the people to be elsewhere. The weather was perfect for outdoor activities - lot of people fishing - picnicking etc. The main factor was the Covered Bridge festival. Many woodworkers also have an interest in attending that festival (and their wives probably really objected to attending a woodworking show instead of the covered bridge festival. I haven't missed the festival for several years - but did attend the WoodWorks show. I have attended many shows for industrial equipment, design shows, etc. in my 39 years as an Engineer. I also attend every Wood show in Indy. Yours was one of the best organized shows with something for everyone. My wife even enjoyed several booths and demos at the show. I did buy a Fisch mortiser at that show as well as several small items. I certainly hope you try Indy again - possibly later in the fall or winter.