Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again) LONG

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Doug in Denver

>So gluing up flatsawn strips has less movement a solid flatasawn slab? I did not know that. From an asthetic perpective, the edge strips might not look a lot better than the plywood look unless the boards are all extremely close in color.

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Ted Wong

>1/8" is quite thick. In my experience wood veneer particularily where curves are involved does best when the veneer is a bit less than 1/16" or so. In your case where the grain is running vertical could you possibly do a baked in edge band to achieve the end grain look and be able to do your dovetails? The core could be cross laminated plys and then you could face the edge bands and the core with your vertical grain veneers.

What I would do...

Ellis Walentine

>... is to make curved plywood drawer blanks out of utility veneers such as poplar, with the plies at 90° angles to each other. You'll need to make male and female forms and press the veneers into them to get the curve you want. If you're vacuum-bagging it, you only need the male form. If these drawers are stacked vertically in the piece, you can make a single curved blank and then cut it up into drawer-sized pieces.

Next, I'd glue solid cherry edgebanding all around the blanks, trim it flush and then veneer the faces. I wouldn't worry about movement or cracking if the veneers are 1/10" or less in thickness; Krenov's students do it all the time. You might want to experiment with the thickness, but I don't forsee any trouble pressing it into the shallow curves you've drawn for us.

My 2¢,

Ellis

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Felix B

>Hi Doug,

>So gluing up flatsawn strips has less movement a solid flatasawn slab? I did not know that.

No. I am using flat-sawn boards glued-up face-to-face. Since the linear dimension (the WIDTH of the boards) is the same, the movement does not change.

In other words, instead of having a peice of flat-sawn cherry 13"L x 11"H x 2"W, I use 11 of 1" thick flat-sawn boards 13"L x 2"W glued-up face-to-face in order to build up the desired height (11").

There is still the same tangential movement, but since the width of the "slab" is small (the width of the drawer front...), I don't have to worry about it. Due to the heght of the "build-up", I am dealing with the radial movement of the "slab".

Does this make sence?

Another thing...

Ellis Walentine

>I understand that you want to show off your dovetail joinery. but there is a noticeable anomaly if you have vertical grain on the faces, whether or not you use end grain or edge grain for your edgebanding. I guess most people wouldn't figure it out, but I think I'd reconsider the dovetails, or, if you need the dovetails for strength, go for it, but then rout out a veneer thickness on the edge and edgeband it with a strip of your veneer.

Two more ¢,

Ellis

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Walnutty

>Based on the design you have embarked on and the materials that you have, a few things I might add. Vac press to the shape will get the material to accept the shape, yes, you'll have the plywood look on edge. Frame it, that is, frame each of the drawer faces, blind spine, biscuits blah, blah, perhaps with a complimentary contrasting wood. Salvages your want to show doves (into new frame), and, in the "verticality" of your grain theme (I'm ASSuming you have drawer stacks on both sides, or not), the contrasting frame will further assist the vertical look of the piece. At the end of the trail, the cross ply sandwich that you will have made through vacing, will not see movement (your frames will be safe), you've added a mild to strong(er) cause for the eye to enjoy the whole piece top to bottom (the vert frame pieces especially), and the doves can be enjoyed while not pure to their original design/construction aesthetic, would be a nice intimate enjoyment by the client.

My .02, just options on where you are with what you've got, whatever you decide to do, it'll be great to see what you've decided to do. Good luck.

Didn't you like solution #2?

Felix B.

>I looked at some antiques last weekend - that's where I got this idea of stocking up boards to get the desired height. But the drawers I saw were not very toll...

No one commented on idea #2 in my original post because:

a). I answered my own question by providing the calculated movement, making this not a good solution for the given task;

b). No one reads long posts like this to the very end

Felix

I'll give this idea a shot

Felix B.

>Hey Ellis,

Glad to hear your "voice" :)

Since the drawers are made exactly the way you suggested (pressed in mold, used lots of clamps :) I can try the edgebonding idea - the only possible solution in the current situation.

In case I mess up, I am mentally ready to redo the drawers anyway. And if it comes to remaking the drawers - I am getting a vacuum press setup :)

Thanks again,

Felix

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Felix B.

>> Frame it, that is, frame each of the drawer faces, blind spine, biscuits blah, blah, perhaps with a complimentary contrasting wood.

Salvages your want to show doves (into new frame), and, in the "verticality" of your grain theme ...

What a remarkable idea!!! In case my edgebonding (as suggested by Ellis) fails and I have to remake the drawers, I'll definately "frame it" before cutting doves.

> ... whatever you decide to do, it'll be great to see what you've decided to do.

Be sure of that. Thanks again!!!

Felix

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Ed Snow

>as someone already mentioned the dovetails will look a might peculiar when the face of the drawer that the grain running at 90 degress to the expected. in fact, i would not want them to detract from all the work of the drawer front. one method used in this situation is the sliding dovetail, or the pinned mortise and tenon. both are suitable for mounting a drawer front to the sides, and if it helps i am not the only one who does this, pretty much all of the industry and james krenov does too.

Nope

Ellis Walentine

>Your solution #2 seemed like a lot of work without a payoff. If you want to bandsaw your drawer fronts, why not just start with 8/4 lumber? I suspect that you want the quartered faces out to minimize shrinkage. But the expected difference isn't enough to matter; you're going to have a problem with the veneer overhanging the substrate if you use solid wood. Plywood is the way to go for accuracy and wood movement insurance. Stacked wood is less likely to cup than a solid piece, but neither is immune to cupping. Once you veneer it, it would be more stable becuse of the strength and moisture resistance of the gluelines.

I don't imagine the shrinkage of your stacked substrate wouldn't cause the veneer to crack any more than plywood would.

And, regardless, the dovetails will still look out of place in the context of the vertical grain face veneers. IMO at least.

Ellis

Great, thanks Ellis!

Felix B

>This is all clear to me know - the "plywood" base is the way to go in this case.

Also, initially I planned to have dovetails visible, but after reading the responses, I agreed with them being "out of place" in this case...

I did consider sliding dovetail as a joint between the sides and the face, but due to the drawer width, I can't do that - files won't fit. So, I am going to go with the dovetails as originally planned, but edgebond them as suggested in the earlier posts

Again, thank you everyone for helpful thoughts!

Felix.

Re: Veneering drawer fronts - help needed (again)

Walnutty

>"Salvages your want to show doves (into new frame)....." ([drawer sides] not face of frames).

Visible only when drawer is opened by the client, does not disrupt the vertical of your veneered drawer stack, possible case work adjustment might be needed.

Veneer over frames for solid field, or, expose frames to assist in vertical, with frame material selection, proportioned, will not need to be much, possible shadow line could be all you want or need, your call certainly.

I really like your vertical grain pursuit, hang in, it's going to look great.

a somewhat related question....

Jim in Houston

>I'm assuming that there would be no problem were the orientation of the grain of the drawer front and the accompanying veneer were parallel? If for example the drawer front were walnut and the veneer were a fancy walnut to overlay the wood movements would be in concert? Working on a similar project with plainsawn walnut drawer front cores and considering a fancy figured veneer overlay for effect.

Thanks!

Depends on what you're envisioning...

Ellis Walentine

>If you're thinking of veneering over solid stock with the grain of both going in the same direction, you're right, there won't be any issues (hate that word) with cracking or wood movement. But, you need to keep in mind that all the shrinkage and expansion will be happening in one dimension; so, if your drawer fronts are oriented with the grain running vertical, they will shrink and expand in their width, which would affect the fit and gaps at the sides of the drawer opening. Using plywood or MDF as your core keeps the face dimension more or less constant in all directions.

Ellis Walentine, Host