Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Way-y-y OT--What happened to pattern-making *LINK*
Wiley Horne--So. Calif.
>Hi All,
This is strictly non-Neander, so you may want to pass on it. Nevertheless, I was sufficiently bowled over by this encounter with the future, that i thought I would post it here. No commercial interest, yadda yadda.
Veritas
paul womack
>Veritas use a lot of this kind of rapid prototyping technology.
Rob Lee normally has a few prototypes in white plastic when he attends trade shows for "show and tell"
BugBear
Wow, that's amazing
Ted Owen, Pittsburgh
>
"COOL"
Wayne
>
Rapid prototype
Kenneth Martin Sacramento
>Interesting! I have heard of this but it is the first time I have seen it.
I have been told in Model Railroading new models are drawn in 3D then sent to a CNC machine and dies are cut. This saves a lot of time in mold making.
Ken
Patternmakers are alive and well, just fewer of em
Robin Corell in Atascadero CA
>Every few years there is some new technology that is supposed to be the new and improved sliced bread that will make patternmakers obsolete. But it hasn't happened.
The first was stereo litography. it consists of a vat of polymer liquid that is solidified when exposed to uv light. A laser trases out the a shape on an aluminium plate that is a few thousanths below the surface of the liquid. the plate is lowered buy a few thousanth and the next layer is traced etc until the object is compleated. the limitations of this method were a jaggad surface, relatively small capabilities and long run time. I saw one proto type, it never caught on.
Next was paper lamanate modeling. this replaced the vat of liquid with a roll of psa paper. the paper was rolled out and then the outline was cut with a laser and another layer of paper was applied and cut etc... This system did get some acceptance in making patterns for casting alloy wheels. the pattern still needed to be painted and sanded and mounted on a plate and gated by a patternmaker so it didn't make patternmakers obsolete, it just put a few big lathes on the used tool market
we now have 3D printers. they ae great for making rapid prototypes but the objects they make still need to be mounted and gated.
wood patterns are still cheaper to make in many instances, particularly for short production runs or where design revisions are anticipated. and then there is the size limitation of the 3D printers. as well as the limitations of being able to use the digital file to machine hollow parts.
Don't get me wrong I am facinated by the technology and see it as a great tool to be used by designers and patternmakers alike. But just as the spindle sander and castable urethante replaced the core box planer this will just be another tool in the patternshop.
Robin
Ps.
Robin Corell in Atascadero CA
>keep in mind the personal computer was suposed to make paper obsolete.
Re: Way-y-y OT--What happened to pattern-making
ThomD
>I remember about 15 years ago there was a company that sold the lower half of 1911 style pistols, the frame, that was prototyping a double stack magazine race gun. The developed the prototype in a laser/plastice process as described in this thread. The metal rails for the slide engagement were the only metal component to the frame, though there were lots of metal parts added like the trigger group. Anyway the prototype was competed for a season, approx 20 000 rounds were fired over it. It's pretty amazing technology, and all the more amazing in application like medical parts making. Too bad there aren't any Craftsman versions yet.
Re: Patternmakers are alive and well, just fewer o
Dick Coers
>I agree with Robin about this technology. I have yet to see parts that are smooth enough to make nice patterns. All these parts are made in layers, so they have a notchie appearance and have a feel like it has grain. I'm sure you can dial down the layer thickness, but haven't seen it. I'm a modelmaker, not a patternmaker, but doesn't that type of part Jay is holding, only work in a lost wax casting? I don't think it will work at all on high production sand casting. Even Jay said he will only use the part data for his cnc machine, not for casting.
The most usable parts I've worked with in this technology were made by a process called SLS(Selective Laser Sintering). This uses powders from thermoplastic to bronze. You can actually get metal parts from this technology. Even the thermoplastic parts are stronger than resin cured parts.
Re: Way-y-y OT--What happened to pattern-making
Tony Z
>Well, to go back to traditional pattern making, if anyone wants to take a look at a dying art, pick up the lastest copy of "Hemmings Classic Car" magazine (exact title as they publish a number of mags), and in it, there is an article on a patternmaker's shop in NY state. Few pics of handtools and an Emmert vise and several interesting pages of reading. Also the guy is looking for an apprentice!
Later tonight, when home, I'll post expanded info on the month of publication and page number of the article.
T.Z.
Re: Way-y-y OT--What happened to pattern-making
charlie belden
>With 3D scanning services popping up by the day, and prices for the service in the $50-$100 range for a 3D file of the object and 2-3 day turn around - max, that $3K "box" would be hard to justify. And the resolution is only in the 0.01" range - which is about 1/64th of an inch. But these things will only get better, smaller, lighter - and less expensive.
I've been thinking about using this technology to create Virtual Collections of turnings - perhaps by famous turners - for amateur/hobbiest turners to collect and study. The virtual pieces could be viewed and "manipulated' on a relatively inexpensive PC or Mac.
Think of being able to "hold" a Hunter, J.Paul Fennel, Bin Pho, Graeme Priddle, Keith Tompkins, Bonnie Klien, Cindy Drozda, Escoulen or Andi Wolfe (the list goes on and on) virtual piece and visually explore it - from any angle - and zoom in on anything you want to examine more closely or care to study.
While the potential market is not that of music, the file size is similar, internet distribution and selling could be fairly easily done and copyright protection could be worked out, along with royalty payments to turners. With a price point around $20, works by now famous, or future famous turners - virtual of course - could be owned by the "masses". And another revenue stream for
I'd sure like to begin a virtual collection of pieces shown here. I'd even join a Piece of The Month Club - assuming Reader's Digest wasn't making the selections.
Got an opinion of this idea?
Re: Way-y-y OT--What happened to pattern-making
ThomD
>Interesting idea. I remember Richard Raffan writting passionately about the fact that far too much effort is spent in WT on wood look, and very little on the form. So on the positive, your kind of file would allow people to study form, or on the other hand people might not care. Sounds like a strange thing to say, people are generally aware of the kinds of shape that are being made, but there are huge blind spots also.
Where it would be interesting would be to see the actual wall thickness. Not just how fat or thin, but the kind of relationship between the inside and the outside, and the degree to which that shape is followed through. Right now a lot of that, particularly with hollow forms is implied by the viewer. An accurate read would be quite revealing, and could even become part of the presentation. You could look at the hollow form but also see a 3D or 3 view of the actual shape. Much of the hobbie of woodturning is pretty static about developing beyond a certain point, so it isn't clear to me people really want to go there.
Re: turnings for view/sale
Pam Niedermayer, Austin, TX
>Many carvers who produce video instruction, e.g. Nora Hall, sell castings of the piece being taught. Very helpful.
Pam
It's taught in year 8 (2nd form) here.
Andrew F in Australia
>Hi Paul/All,
As a group, we bought one of the Rapid Prototyping Machines used in the movie for the use of all state Industrial Arts teachers.
We teach the use of Rapid Prototyping in year 8, using either Siemens Solid Edge or Panametrics Pro/Desktop software to create the 3D model/Stereo Lithography file.
They all design and have a keytag printed off in the Rapid Prototyping machine, maximum of 4mm thick x 55 x 25mm at our school.
Our students are conversant, pretty well state-wide, in the use of 3D CAD software.
Cheers,
Andrew
Re: turnings for view/sale
charlie belden
>Since Nora Hall's carving don't have much, if any undercutting I can see how it would be fairly easy to make a mold of some of her carvings and make castings from them.
Are they in resin or plaster?
Casting of turned objects, other than plates and open bowls, would be a lot more difficult to cast, the mold required would be tricky, but not extremely difficult to make - if vulcanized rubber could be used - an inside to outside spiral. Have done molds like that of jewelry pieces.
The Dimension "printer" eliminates the need for a mold - at least for making plasic parts. And the ability to have dissolvable "gates" permits making moveable parts - in place.
Lots of possibilities.
Re: turnings for view/sale
Pam Niedermayer, Austin, TX
>Yeah, I intended the fact that the carving castings (plaster, at least the one I have) sold to be supportive of your idea, not replace it.
I've been following the 3D printers for years, probably 12 or so. Through the Mass Software Council got early looks at a lot of good stuff being done by local researchers, like at MIT. Pretty cool stuff.
Pam