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Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Influencers never give good advice.

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Influencers never give good advice.

#1

Maurice

Before YouTube became the dominant source for woodworking standards and advice there were magazine's then forum's.
I don't do Facebook or Reddit so can't comment on their influence.
But the best education on how to ?
Full time employment.
The magazine's are heavily influenced by advertising revenue so their tool and machine reviews are heavily skewed. Sometimes they are total bollocks. 
Often their how to articles are skewed to favour the above mentioned of course.
I have very little respect for Journos. I lived with an Ex Taunton press Journo for a while. Nice guy but like so many of his kind, a huge drinker and party animal. 
Journos love to spin. They can't help themselves. They aren't interested in promoting craftsmanship. They promote the image. They look after their sponsors and advertising revenue. 
My grandfather shared my contempt for the media and refused to be used. He got on fine without their bogus free promo pitch in return for cheap copy shtick.
You boob takes it to a whole new level of BS though. People are easily seduced by image and fluff. They fall for the illusion that subscriber numbers equals validity. 
In the old days people weren't quite that ignorant or easily lead.
A lot of full time woodworker's consider their knowledge proprietary. They don't like to share their hard earned inside knowledge.
I agree with this to a considerable degree.
But not in every way. Standards are dropping across the board now. Customer's are getting ripped off by hack n Jack cabinet shack. Instead of solid timber kitchens you have MDF/chipboard landfill feeding crap. 
Houses are overpriced mildew farm's. Rot box meets panel product schlok. 
The one area where quality standards remain high is musical instruments simply because ply wood sounds like shit. 
But even here the carbon fibre lobby is pushing their alternatives to timber. 
Many instrument makers are selling out. Guitar makers are the worst offenders. No surprises there. 
Ikea killed the local cabinet maker in every Swedish town and village who sourced direct from the sawmill. Now everyone has shit furniture. Germany killed all its craftsmen on the Russian front. They invented fitted kitchen junk to rebuild their bombed out cities.
This is the state of things. The Brits made their woodworker's reserved occupation.
So our trades survived the war. As did Japan's. There is still a demand for quality work  particularly to maintain houses that are heritage listed. 
Who knows what the future holds ? 
A return to simpler living may be a necessity.
Timber framing is making a significant come back in Japan. 
Timber framing my new house has been an absolute revelation. Traditional cabinet making is just timber framing on a smaller scale. Unlike modern joinery it lasts.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

Edited #2

Actually, one of the interesting things with squatting on knowledge is when I got into this hobby (late 2005 or early 2006, I can't remember), there were a lot of people who had done not very spectacular things as pros but they sort of believed everything they knew had to be kept secret, and making money off of what they wanted to demonstrate was right around the corner. 

By that, I mean a lot of those folks would show something they made, and then when asked about it, say "that's a secret that I'm not telling" for very unspectacular stuff. 

I have made 10 guitars, but all are solid body - they weren't that thrilling to make, but the key is I've bought a boatload of guitars and if you're going to have guitars around more than what you play on a daily basis, flat top guitars aren't it. They are alive "fo eva" and the one you last played that was great that's got scalloped bracing put aside for a year or so will not be the same guitar when you get it out of the case. BTDT. Relatively little happens with solid bodies, and they can be more fundamentally different in shape and kind of qualities. https://i.imgur.com/v5fpTAr.jpg You can take oddball stuff like scrap flasawn maple and make a one off neck (no power tools in this case at all, but for the tuning machine holes here - not even for thicknessing the wood or the walnut strips, all done by hand. 

That's amateur stuff- amateurs can afford to spend time doing that, really staring at the work for a while, thinking about it, making it - maybe making the guitar over a month instead of in three days. 

I've gradually switched to tools, but when I wanted to learn more about heat treating (to the right of the guitar here):
https://i.imgur.com/1ldQpGI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/g4t36uU.jpg

...I encountered a guy who was selling knives and he at least claimed that he was bettering peters' heat treatment for a relatively popular steel. He probably was. He wanted to talk a lot about it, how good his knives were, how thin he could make them and so on and he wanted only to talk about the beginning of the process and not suggest what he was doing. I sort of get that - there's a little more nuance than how he makes a wood filler that nobody can see, or howhe may have made to work on a slider to pound out substrate for veneering. But it still seemed dorky. There's opportunity for a good knife maker just in effort that's more valuable than "secrets" - the secret is that if you work at the top level, people will buy your stuff, they will buy more and talk about it and they probably won't care that much about your process. 

Remember, I'm an amateur. 

About three or four years ago, I sent samples of the steel in the chisels above in test coupons to a metallurgist. They tested better than anything out of a furnace schedule. I've learned a lot since then -what steels will do that (carbon >1%) and where you'll just match book if you do well by hand (O1, for example, or other steels 1% carbon or less for the most part). Metallurgists aren't really into amateurs doing work by hand, so the metallurgist wasn't that pleased to see the results, but at least he didn't lie about them and change the numbers. He was hoping to prove to me that what I sent couldn't be done, and then just changed his tune to it can't be done consistently (it can, at least in a small universe of steels). 

I don't really have any secrets. I thought about it after developing a process - what if I make chisels in retirement, and so on. It seemed pointless pretty quickly. The people really making money aren't making stuff - they're building a following, making a little bit and then selling out and having most of their work done by contract and then entirely manufactured with just their brand on it. 

On the bottom end of the guitar market, the factory made stuff in indonesia has crept up to a point that it never was remotely close to 30 years ago and you can get a boomer of a guitar made out of decent wood - talking about acoustic - for $500 on sale somewhere because the brand isn't popular here in the states and someone is giving it a shot, anyway. The market has gone dumb and growth in sales is stuff like fender or gibson relic work that isn't made of the same stuff in the same way it as made before - the wood is from fiji, for example, or the pickup parts from china not made the same way. The guys who really were chasing quality as individual makers making guitars by hand have kind of lost the educated customer base to limited collectible manufactured stuff where instead of being a CFO with a 25,000 archtop guitar that feels and sounds like something God may have dropped when he passed in front of Moses, it's ten CFOs celebrating that they have each spent $25,000 for a $5000 guitar, but there are ten, so they have someone to stand next to when they measure as opposed to having to explain what they have to everyone all the time. Plus, maybe the manufacturer spent $1000 putting paint on such guitars in a way that they look sort of like something a boyhood hero played in film. 

There have been a few true masters who have floated through the forums - kind of like the elite guitars, they don't really sell as well as a guy who tells you that you can make boiled linseed oil by buying something in a can and putting it on a grill. 

We do have our share of people whose biggest secret is also what they do and don't do. Googlers who have attempted to have woodworking businesses, but filed for bankruptcy and in between, failed to hold other employment that really is their primary skill, returning to imply that they really know what it takes to "get to work" - barking at amateurs and other professionals alike. We have no idea what they're so jealous of, or why they don't notice that few bark back at them because of indifference. Perhaps solvency, or perhaps it's a dog from a bad blood line kind of thing - such dogs bark and growl no matter what, offer nothing to to pack, and really don't have a point. Maybe those dogs that run up to the fence and bark and growl but who don't even have the skill to fetch the morning paper for their owners really are barking just for attention and can't get it any other way. 

Maurice, you remind me more of my good friend George. George learned design formally, but learned most of what he has done making by making. He did world class work by day, and then did it at night. he's unafraid to say he's a good maker, but also has no secrets if people will listen. He has no secrets because he's first not worried that you're going to steal his work, and second, well aware that when he does really high level work, probably nobody would be able to in the first place. I don't know if it's so much that kind of endless ability to find heirs or well-off folks who will pay shop rate for really unique fine work, but George is nuts about the work. He's not nuts about the recognition - he is bonkers about fine work and the satisfaction of pushing and doing more of it. There is but one quick way to really piss him off - ask him for information at length, imply that you're going to use it, and then go and find someone like a magazine writer and say "there was an article in finewoodworking that said __________". That is, make him go to some effort to organize things for you and then show him that you wasted his time and effort. 

He also referred to the journalistic published makers, at least some as "the best I can tell, if they make something, they write a book about it", which is more of a slight than most may imagine. It's a  shot - a real maker makes. A person primarily seeking to publish makes something, and then spends a great deal of time writing books because they probably couldn't avoid bankruptcy courts if they were just making. 

Whatever niche stuff I find out with hands in the forge or hands on tongs or snapping metal samples, it's not that difficult. It's certainly more valuable and more practical than taking 14 classes and buying more equipment, and whatever you come up with, you own. When you read what someone else does and you just copy them, you're borrowing it. The knowledge has little as far as roots go and if you forget it and misplace your notes, you've lost it because most of your nerve endings were holding back anyway while you thought about copying the steps someone else did vs. being three dimensionally involved in what you're doing and setting the roots so the knowledge can be fertilized and grown further later and tied to other things. The folks who are really nuts as makers have a lot of roots - you can tell the difference when you talk to them, and the issue isn't so much that you want to learn to copy everything they do - it's to spot the difference between them and the googlers who bounce from one failure to the next but have ire for everyone along the way, offering opinions and implying authority and going to great length to hide the googling and failing that drives the desire to practice online escapism. 

Back to the niche stuff - everything good that I've found "in the dirt" by using the shovel rather than reading about excavators is published somewhere. I use that as a means to see if what I find is well known - it generally always is. You do it, it works, someone did it before and at this point with information everywhere, probably published it. You quench steel once before refining grain and find that the grain refinement is more effective after the quench? You can find out why. But if you are the googler-failure type instead of someone looking to set roots, you'll never find that information, anyway. Googler-failures will tell you about how much they've been exposed to, how well read they are - you'll have a near impossible time finding any of their portfolio, but you may find some answers that they wish to hide. 

We're transitioning at this point really from the folks who want to keep their secrets - not telling anyone that you can quench steel twice and get better results than if you do it once, and what you have to do before the first one and in between that and the other.....now that information like that can be found, even if it takes a little more work, most of the people who want the secrets or think they do find looking further into them to be too much work, anyway. Things done by hand in heat treatment, for example, by knife makers common in the 90s are now considered to be irrelevant, because they are not valuable. You can't charge for them, and they are effortful. Much like a jig, the "secret" is now to buy the right equipment, which does work just like a joinery jig might, but offers the buyer the ability to stop testing themselves and settle for commodity results, so they can go back and get on to what they really want to do - watch netflix or read magazines.

Added later 03 min 33 s:

To your original point, there are definitely people who have set up online publishing or youtube or whatever that want to tell you heat treatment, something in my case that I wanted to figure out on my own after not finding much success with other peoples' advice. A maker can observe results and compare them. Influencers will show you how to do something, poorly - the result isn't the point - the payment for the influence is. 

Nothing that I can think of that's valuable in making a better chisel has come from an influencer. Which does suck if you know that from the outset. breaking steel in half, taking pictures of it and buying a hardness tester to confirm something that's not easy to do just by biting or licking - it's the secret in the dirt ben hogan talked about with golf. There's no secret in the dirt - the dirt is what you to get better so that you're smart enough to know there's no secret. Most people will lose interest when they find out that doing rather than reading or "knowing" without doing is a lot more effective.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

#3

Maurice

Well okay. That is a huge reply.
All I can tell you very briefly is this to avoid getting to convoluted.
There are many levels to musical instrument making. The huge plus with pipe organs is that it has enjoyed a continuous evolving tradition that has not been broken badly by flakes and fakes. I'm not an expert on guitar's but amplification by pick ups obviously reduces the need to make an acoustic resonate as efficiently as possible.
The guitar is a budget version of the lute. It's loud, it's quicker to build but not as tonally complex. IMHO.
Because I come from a family of Engineer's who have been at the cutting edge in Aerospace and weapon's tech for numerous generations I'm better informed than most about proprietary technologies and materials science. But once you get in to technology that has military applications you bump in to offsec. Tricky but very useful when working a material as exotic as timber.
But the fundamentals of sound structural woodworking are not hard to grasp. You don't have to have super expensive gizmo's tools to do quality work.
The art of high quality instruments is in the details you don't cheat on and shortcut.
Thousands of them. Optimising an acoustic instrument takes more time. 
The secrets are the sum of many details learned the hard way. I know all the cheats the other makers make. They can BS their clients but not me. 
It's okay. Everybody does their own thing.
My effort here is to encourage a return to sound, simple working principles that enrich your life instead of another fake it to make it, epoxy pouring, domino deva, man bun hipster, Illuminati shill. Lol. Cringe central.
When Steinway America was bought out by a consortium of up state New York lawyers they fired all the old hands and replaced them with cheap illegal immigrants. Ain't that America in a nutshell ?
So now Steinway American pianos are shit.
Before sacking them they insisted the highly trained and experienced write down their work processes " for posterity" .
Nobody fell for that lawyer bullshit and wrote bogus bs ! Craftsmen aren't stupid. 
All that accrued knowledge lost to greedy lawyer's. Masonic scum.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

Edited #4

>The art of high quality instruments is in the details you don't cheat on and shortcut.

That would be the case for acoustic guitars, including arch top guitars. Arch top (hollow body) guitars can be made the hard way, or they can be made the easy way which can devolve all the way down to pressing spruce to shape (literally compressing it -this has a consequence of course, but is done on $750-1500 guitars, not $15,000 guitars), or plywood. 

I learned the hard way buying some production guitars that were not cheap and also had really excellent materials that the outcome for the guitar, aside from stability which is another topic - but tonally -is going to depend on getting good enough materials, but beyond that having individual attention given at certain steps. In production, this is mostly cut out so you go play 10 of something common until you find one unusual. If the builder is a good builder (collings, bourgeois) the process of voicing things is or at least was part of the process and parts of the guitar are built to a tonal quality and sometimes a stiffness rather than to a dimension. 

The result is that every guitar sounds nearly the same. Some people will refer to that as taking some of the life out of the guitars, but it's not a very educated opinion - just like stamp collectors. 

The best arch top guitar I've ever had came from china. The top model from the eastman range in clear finish. The top is carved by hand, the sticker at the time was 1/5th or 1/6th of what an american small production shop (keeping in mind, they have parent companies that want a big share of what they charge, so they're not just charging for the guitar plus a little profit), and I had two because I found both used  for *cheap*. Archtops are probably a little harder to make one the same as the next like a flat top and one of the two wasn't as good as the other. I kept the good one, sold the other one for a song to someone using a vintage Gibson L-5, and he remarked that it blew away his L-5. made a little differently, but made by a guy carving the top by hand, and the guy does that on a production basis - he's not going to stay very interested in his work if he can't differentiate it. 

I'm unfamiliar with organs other than going through a pair in local churches (two chance occurrences) while they were being refreshed - unfamiliar other than to say that the work is more steady than it would be for someone making archtop or custom flat top guitars. The guys who used to make those and keep a pretty long order list mostly went to partnering with online hobbyist retailers to sell trinkets that will "help you make a guitar", and instructional videos. I'm sure they give or have given classes in person if they haven't retired. I think that part of the market is a tiny fraction of what it used to be. It's not easy to sell a custom instrument, either - it doesn't matter if it's good. A buyer for a custom instrument wants to be the original order maker -they don't want someone else's custom. I'm sure the same thing is true with furniture - the first sale between maker and customer is several multiples of anything afterward unless the maker later becomes a status symbol of sorts to have. 

A relative of mine had a fine clock from England - grandfather clock  - face was hand painted and the work done by hand on it. He lost his wife and was downsizing and asked if I would like to buy the clock. I have no room where it would really make sense - it would fit, but it would look like a candelabra on the front of a camry. he then asked if I would just take it and ended up giving it away on "offer up". We're headed into different times - maybe those times will change again. The world of not-that-rare production guitars that are in the $25k range or whatever now is heavily comprised of older men who had guitar heroes and now are retired after selling something to venture capital or being perhaps being on the other end of that transaction. They don't have too much left for decades, and one of two things are going to happen  -all of the stuff they've collected is going to hit the market and go the way of the antique bicycle craze, or some will be junked when relatives don't know what it is and it either gets lost or dropped.

Added later 33 min 44 s:

I'd imagine the real issue with steinway pianos has become the limited need for them, the relatively limited market and fighting with others who have come along. 

In short, it's like the $20k semi custom archtop industry - the market probably isn't there and the folks who are shopping around can also find the ones that were made if they are bargain hunters and spend 1/3rd or 1/2. 

I saw a special on steinways - it reminded me of guitars. The pianist who worked as a consultant to find good ones basically said you have to go and play them. there could be confounding factors on top of that, especially in regard to the supply of wood and the budget to have some waste when casting aside stuff that doesn't meet spec. At any rate, rather than each being great and just different, each is different and many not great with reference made to a change, not just that's the case but it wasn't in the past. that some are still good reminds me of production guitars. You have to play a whole bunch of them - even solid body, to find one that will match an earnest effort. If you can, good for you. If you're hoping to buy something over the internet, not a great idea. 

There is another issue in the US in terms of what happens with any business as it gets older - the buyer is rarely an interested enthusiast who is also in the business of making the same thing. We are in a state both where original owners who would've paid nothing for their businesses are bid seeking and even if they have good intentions and regard for the business and employees, they get offended that their pet business isn't worth double market rate. Bid seeking leads to leveraged capital groups or some other arrangement, and the results is pretty predictable - much more of what's harvested by the business doesn't go to the customer or employee, it gets shut upward through a bank tube to the new owner, who is probably in a constant state of figuring out how to cut costs to improve financials another notch (not improve the business in the long term so much) and flip the business again. This cycle is kind of like gravity - once something gets in the orbit of the process, it is very uncommon that it would escape. 

No clue if that's happened to steinway specifically but that change has gone through everything from high end shoes (now not so high end), to physicians groups to veterinarians. I'd say funeral homes, but recall that being tainted more than 30 years ago.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

Edited #5

Maurice

I have a candelabra. It hangs next to the fluffy dice in my mustang. Just kidding.
Only hookers, closet Queens and old Freemasons drive those. God I love making up sweeping generalisations.
When I first moved to Oz I was befriended by a guitar maker. I later found out why his daughter was such a mess. Poor kid.
So I washed my hands. He had a very violent streak and many rather dubious associations. 
There is a clear demarcation line between simple decent people in our trade and the hustlers. 
It is what it is. Same in the military. Many 
Regulars in the officer class hate Specials.
We make them look stupid to often and God knows that's not hard to do.
They call us specials because we are specialists rather than grunts who follow orders without question. 
VR is a very very different culture to regular.
So I always stand back and observe carefully. 
And i don't do drugs or molest children.
Bit old fashioned that way. Unlike the bespoke woke rainbow unicorn mob with their custom knife fetish and craft beer hipster Cafe society partner swapping venues. Lol.
The more they try to look different the more exactly the same they look.
Can't believe I'm still here...
Should have been dragged kicking and screaming by the mods by now.
Cheers everyone .
Lighten up guy's. It's only the end of the world as we know it.

Added later 1 h 43 min 05 s:

There's a Martin for sale ! 60 to 80,000 new.
Used for 7k. Nah, I'm not going to check it out. It's got Gizmo's. Money pits for chumps like Festo. Those cynical Germans.
The base models are good. But once you enter Jizmo land it explodes in your face.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

#6

I wonder what you'd think of "The New Yankee Workshop" where more than a few of us caught the wood-working bug. It ran on US PBS for 21 seasons starting in 1989. The show featured a carpenter (US designation) who took the mystery out of the "making" process and encouraged amateurs to have a go at the craft. It was polished and featured excellent camera and script work. It was the only one of its kind for a long time and the granddaddy of the current crop of presenters.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

#7

Maurice

Out of curiosity I watched a few episodes of Yankee workshop.
Yes, he popularised wood working as a hobby and brought it to a wider audience. 
But self evidently self taught and lacking in depth knowledge of the fundamentals he introduced numerous error's in practice.
How heavily was he sponsored ? I don't know. But I suspect rather a lot.
But when you work with the real deal it's a totally different environment to a studio.
While amateur's may watch a Cooper make barrels wide eyed, a fellow craftsman is focused on all the tiny details the uninitiated wouldn't pick up on. 
Economy of effort,  speed of execution, tools and grain orientation. 
But it's not just about the work. It's the culture and its beneficial influence in the wider community. The influence of self discipline on the mind and spirit. It's a way of living not just a job. 
That's what is missing and the real question is how do YOU find that ? 
There are plenty of officers with campaign medals on their chest who never saw the front line. Paper soldier's.
Competence isn't something you can buy with a commission. 
Wood is what it is. It will not change its fundamental properties to indulge ego or wheel re inventors.  Those who refuse to learn from the bottom up poison from the top down.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

#8

I think the origin of the show was less so much sponsorship and more the desire of the creator of the show. Later sponsored - I was only a kid when that show was first on and remember more listening to my friend's dad bark "nobody has that tool!!!" as hobby woodworking back then was more often combo for someone who wanted to cut costs by pitching in building their house. The show would be considered common tooling now, but wasn't then. the trail of used older table saws sort of tells the tale...far more of those spiderweb like open cast tops on a contractor saw than anything that would look like a unisaw unless someone was legit serious. 

And perhaps upper middle class or more in spending habits. All i remember is delta tools, but they didn't all start like that - I guess the advertising worked!! I bought a few delta tools starting this hobby but knew they jumped the shark by then already, and the only thing I still have is a midi lathe. A small jointer and a hybrid TS were both crap, but they were import stuff post shark jumping period. Mentioning the show and tying those things together doesn't present one important detail - probably 13 years between the last viewing of NYW as a kid before starting the hobby as an adult. Had no influence and nothing to do with getting into the hobby - a coworker saying "you talk like my husband and you have too much time at the desk and not enough time with your hands, do you want to try woodworking with him?" Maybe the rare occasion where nothing commercial at all was involved until after getting into the hobby. 

A childhood of men trying to make things with stuff like benchtop craftsman saws - like yard ducks, and watching my mom do lucrative business on the craft circuit where nobody made money "woodworking" other than whimsey - no dice on influence. I wanted to get away from that kitschy stuff being everywhere.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

#9

Maurice

The longer the apprenticeship the stronger the master. But in between the yearning and the mastery is the journey. The best part. The worst part. Love and loss, grief and triumph. Gaining through failing. 
Sometimes the master has to play the fool to teach the golden rule. 
We end where we began and all is one. 
No gain without loss, no beggining, no end.
The Queen who gave us all demands final payment in the fall. The final quenching. The last enemy.

Re: Influencers never give good advice.

#10

Journos love to spin. They can't help themselves. They aren't interested in promoting craftsmanship. They promote the image. They look after their sponsors and advertising revenue. 

Reminds me a particular, very famous ex-journalist. The description is spot on. 

Timber framing is making a significant come back in Japan. 


It never really went away. Light residential framing\carcass construction is purely North American phenomena, and the country that doesn't have much natural resources reserve will have limited use of concrete\bricks. So it's wood for them, since it's renewable and easier to import.

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