breaking finials every time!

Re: breaking finials every time!

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Ken, a couple of tips...always ride the bevel, make sure the tool is sharp, and always work downhill on spindle turning; from large diameter to small. As the finial get thinner, avoid putting pressure on the spindle directly, which causes flex and breakage. It's better to work toward either the tail stock or head stock, applying any pressure in that direction. Long, slender spindles (finials) may need some support.

As for the catches, practice, man, practice.

Re: breaking finials every time!

Dennis Taylor

>I was having similar problems awhile back, and that is the trick...work from the tailstock back to the headstock, in steps, that surely helped me...ride the bevel, sharp tool, you should be one your way..Dennis

Re: breaking finials every time!

Russ Fairfield

>Four suggestions:

Sharper tool.

Like the skew chisel, it is impossible to have a spindle gouge too sharp. The sharper it is, the more easilly it slices through the wood.

Lighter touch.

You may be pushing too hard. The bevel should skim across the surface of the wood without any pressure against the wood.

Higher speed.

The lighter touch is easier to do at higher lathe speeds.

More practice.

You should be able to use a spindle gouge without having any catches BEFORE trying to turn a delicate finial.

The tool angle will also be important to your success.

A 25-degree angle between the bevel and the bottom of the flute leaves a better finish, but it is a very difficult tool to use because it is a very "catchty" tool. A thicker 45-degree angle is easier to use because it is less "catchy", but it will not leave as smooth a finish thinner angle.

Re: Russ is right........

Ruth Niles

>Go with a higher speed and a lighter touch. Guess I don't have to say "practice", right?

: )

Re: breaking finials every time!

Dick Hines

>If you can see the spindle warping away from your tool you are putting way to much pressure on the work.

I don't recomend this to anyone but I will put a little pressure with a finger on the back side. BE VERY CAREFUL!

Re: breaking finials every time!

Barry Irby

>Ken, I made 30 or 40 ornaments and I would think the processes could be similar. I have a lathe with a No. 2 Morse taper in the head stock. I take a stick about 3/4" square and 6 or 7 inches long and grind a taper on the end on my belt sander. The taper is about an inch long and ROUGHLY approximates the No 2 taper. With a mallet I drive it into the head stock directly into the shaft. Sometimes I bring the tail stock up mostly to see if it is pretty well centered and to hold it long enough to knock off all the corners. Once it is round, I either move the tail stock out of the way or at least loosen it slightly to take the pressure off the work piece to avoid bowing it as it gets thin.

I turn most of them with a Bowl gouge with the Ellsworth grind. A fairly big one, either 5/8 or half inch depending how you measure it. I know it seems like its too big, but it works well for me. and I turn them at 2500 or 3000 RPM. Since I turn mostly bowls, this seems really fast, but on very small items its the way to go. Once I've got the "icicle" part done and four or five inches long, I part it off and use the rest to create the top part for the hanger.

I like working directly in the shaft, without a spur or a chuck. Nothing to catch a tool on and nothing to leave some hide on. I don't think you are supposed to run most chucks that fast anyway. Also no chance of the drive spur splitting the work.

thanks all.practiced all day!

ken chase

>Great suggestions all. Much appreciated

finial

Terry Quiram, Roanoke Illinois

>Ken

You didn't mention what type of wood you were using. I have found that the denser the wood the better. I practice with Hop Hornbeam. White like Holly and very tough.

Terry

Re: breaking finials every time!

Barry Turner

>That's pretty good. 3 out of 3. I hope you realize you are batting 1000 right now. Seriously, I don't know what tool you are using, but try a razor sharp 1/4" spindle gouge with a fingernail grind. Others may be able to skillfully use a small skew, a small oval skew or a round skew, but you can do an awful lot of very fine work with a 1/4" fingernail spindle gouge. For finials, the 1/4" spindle gouge is my workhorse! Pay attention to wood selection, too. Coarse grain woods like oak do not work as well for delicate spindles and finials. A hard, fine grain wood like ebony or maple works very well.

Re: breaking finials every time!

john Lucas

>Ken

Excellent suggestions so far. I'll mention one more. Make sure the grain is straight on the wood. If the finial is thick you can get buy with grain that runs out the side but if it's thin you need straight grain in that section to keep it from breaking.

Re: breaking finials every time!

John K Jordan

>I have a hard time turning very thin spindles unless I support them while turning. I wrap fingers from my left hand around behind the piece and use a sharp skew or detail gouge. The fingers balance the (very light) force from the tool so the wood does not flex and break. Since the left hand is on the wood, I grip the tool close to the tip with my right hand and often lend extra support to the back of the tool handle by holding it against and under my right forearm. This works better with smaller tools. I usually add more support and control to the tool with my left thumb against the left side of the tool tip. It's surprising how much very fine control this provides.

I make a lot of finger tops with the thick part of the top hanging from the end of a very thin handle - it is nearly impossible to do the finish cuts on a thin handle without supporting the work this way.

It may sound dangerous to have your fingers so close to the sharp tip, but I don't think it is. The wood is usually very thin so if there is a catch the wood simply breaks and falls away. You cut with VERY little force so there is almost no danger of jamming the point of the skew into your finger. Just as when using sandpaper, if your fingers get warm from too much friction, you are using way too much force. Of course, you would not try to support a piece with your fingers until it is turned smooth! And of course, you don't want your hand to contact the spinning jaws of a chuck.

Another thing for very thin spindles - I generally hold one end tight in a chuck (or turn a morse taper on one end and jam it into the taper in the lathe spindle). Even when held by a chuck, it might help to hold the right hand end of a finial with the tailstock until the blank is turned round and most of the detail is done.

The tip concerning straight grain is a good one. On some types of wood (cocobolo, ebony, etc) this doesn't seem to matter as much but it is very important for most woods.

JKJ in East TN

Re: breaking finials every time!

Russ Fairfield

>Is this what you are talking about??

Re: breaking finials every time!

john Lucas

>Good Photo Russ. That's exactly what I do when turning ornament finials. John hit on another good point. Pressure from the tailstock will break a thin spindle. I use a chuck to hold one end and when turning the ornament finials I remove the tailstock after rounding over the blank. I leave the wood full thickness for vibration reduction and work on 1" at a time while supporting the rest with my fingers like in Russ's photo.

Re: breaking finials every time!

Arch

>Driving a thin spindle by holding in a chuck or taper (ie. tightening the circumference) does more than just allow for a free or loose tail center. Apparenty, compressing the axial fiber bundles at only the driven end of long thin longitudinal oriented grain makes turning thin easier.

Someone please explain or disagree.

Thanks! pic worth 1000 words

ken chase

>Once again. My appreciation for this very informative tutorial. I've learned much and confident my next attempt will be successful because of all the help I've received here

Re: breaking finials every time!

Ruth Niles

>Arch, put it in this perspective; would you produce something nice if someone clamped and choked you? OR if someone gently, lightly held you by one hand? When the wood "speaks" to me, it tells me to be gentle! : )

Re: breaking finials every time!

Arch

>Hi Ruth, Now that's what I call a ladylike disagreement.:) Hope Arlene missed all your Florida kinfolk, but I'm afraid there's more to come.:(

All Best, Arch

Re: breaking finials every time!

Arch

>Ruth, I forgot to thank you for the tip. Last time the wood spoke to me, it cussed me out in a shrill voice. I was probably choking it agressively. A.

Re: breaking finials every time!

Brad Vietje

>Ken,

I DO recommend using a finger (carefully) to steady the finial -- I usually reach under the rest to hold the backside of the piece.

Whenever I've snapped a finial or a delicate spindle, it was because I allowed the tip of the tool to cut, and the spinning wood "climbed up and over" the tip. I use a spindle gouge with a medium bevel for roughing work, and one with a very long bevel (~25 degrees) for finish and detail work. This tool has a very tight radius at the tip, making it pretty easy for the spindle to "climb".

Here's what works for me (YMMV): I use the rest lower than most -- well below center. I keep the tool handle angled down toward the floor (forget what your shop teacher told you !), and take fine shearing cuts with the side, not the tip, of the tool. I also sharpen or hone the gouge often.

If you aren't accustomed to turning this way, try it by resting the back of the tool on the spinning wood with the tip high and not touching the wood. Slowly rotate the tool until the cutting edge begins to make a shaving. Remember -- you don't want to have the shaving come off the tip of the tool, unless you're cutting into a deep "V", or parting off -- in this case the tool would be right over on its side.

Safe Spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Re: breaking finials every time!

Keith Tompkins

>Brad, my method also....low toolrest!