Designing with Triangles?

Re: Designing with Triangles?

RonZ

>It's possible that because some of my students might have ADD or its the current generation, when math is discussed, their eyes glaze over. So if I would elaborate on mathmatical formulas and shapes, I'd lose them.

The formula you have appears to work well for a certain type of bowl but not all. Also, the student would still have to have an understanding of shapes as to know what to fill the triangles with and how. Take the ogee bowl for instance, the student would have to know the ogee shape first and the know about small feet. Otherwise he/she would eliminate the foot and just flatten the ogee at the bottom and end up with a strange bowl. Deep bowls such as salad bowls, vases, flasks, boxes, etc.

don't appear to fit in here. Perhaps I'm missing something.

What I usually show my students a variety of classic shapes using early vessels, nature, and John Hunnex's book as a point of reference and if they look really interested, I'll elaborate a little on phi.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Fred in NC

>Keith, my most honest answers from my own perspective:

Does this seem like a good way to "see" and learn bowl turning design to you? A: To me, YES.

does this seem like a good way to teach ( or learn) bowl design? A: YES, to those who are very serious about it.

Would this make a good article? DEFINITELY!

Does this seem too "contrived" for your taste, reducing an art form to a basic formula? NO, geometry is based on nature... GEO = EARTH.

Would a turning video based on this and similar ideas be viable? YES, definitely. Then, again, it is not for everybody.

Keith, I think the word DESIGN should be stressed. This is not about learning how to turn wood bowls or lathe work. While related, it is a separate, and to me, more advanced subject. GO FOR IT, KEITH!!!

By the way, anybody hear about Leonardo da Vinci?

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Ron, you appear to have the same experiences as I have.....when you mention geometry or mathematics, students tend to nod off.

However, when you can SHOW how these principles can be APPLIED to their craft, a light seems to go off. You can actually see it in people's faces.... WE all sat through the same boring classes; I always thought "after school, I'll never need this crap again". I cannot remember any of my teachers trying to bring the subject matter they were teaching "to life", or to show WHY it was important to learn the material.

Many students can occasionally turn a pretty good form yet not realize how they came about it, and afterwards are unable to duplicate the results. I am trying to help people turn successful pieces on a consistant basis; this may be a good tool for that.

This approach does not work in all cases, but a surprising range of possibilities exists. For example, rotate the triangles so the long sides come together. Now, lovely tall vase forms fit very well.

I'm not trying to cover everything with one simple formula, what I'm trying to do is create a method of teaching an understanding of form, and how different ideas may be applied...a starting point from which a student can grow and develop.....hopefully in time they can just pick up a piece of wood, and just turn it, the aspects of design and good form have become second-nature.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Ben Aragon

>Keith,

I�ve turned bowls and vessels on the fly but I would have to say that my best work is done when I do some design work before hand. I feel that any design work ahead of time couldn�t hurt and could only help with the final shape. Its always fun to turn free form and become surprised at the final result. I would never free turn with an expensive burl and take the chance of ruining a valuable piece of wood, the loss would be a shame.

I have several design books from furniture to art and the concepts overlap, if not the same. I feel that you can�t have enough help, which is why I like WC so much, the exchange of information is phenomenal.

I would welcome a more detailed article of your design approach. There are several ways to approach a problem and yours is another that will help. This approach may not help everyone but it should help some. I think it would make for a good article. A lot of art classes teach this very concept. The masters used geometry in their art designs how do you think we learned about it. A video would be great, although I have NO idea on the costs and profits of such a venture.

These are just the opinions of one guy. Boy I wish there were more baseball on TV.

Best Wishes,

Ben

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Arch

>Hi Keith, WC is to some extent a support group, but a member of your stature doesn't need it so I'll suggest my take on woodturning design although I'm not really qualified to discuss design. It's not meant as a rebuttal and I hope I don't say it badly.

It seems to me that if education is needed to either make or appreciate a turning, the rigidity might restrict the unsophisticated. Design can communicate feelings that language cannot and feelings aren't limited by geometry.

I realize that a person trained in design can see and enjoy nuances that others miss. Good design is probably universal, but fashions change. I think much of our appreciation of design is intuitive, maybe even irrational. Most of know when we turn a bad design. Your job is to teach us how to do better and since you do that well, using a formula or not isn't important. Darn it Keith, I've talked myself into agreeing with you.:)

All best, Arch

Re: Designing with Triangles?

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Very intersting concept Keith! I've heard of some of the different means of designing, like the Golden ratio, the rule of thirds, etc. I guess my take on them has been a bit mild in practice, because I never use measurments when I'm turning bowls, vases or such forms - and yet, I see the rule of thirds showing up in my work, or at least in the work that I still like months after I've finished it. A very interesting side note to this, kind of working backwards, would be to take some of the forms I have turned - or anyone for that matter - and apply such a triangle to them, and see what happens.

Your posts are always thought provoking Keith - thanks!

David

Re: Designing with Triangles?

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>I think you're right here Keith - many times these formulas work better in reverse, applying them to things that already exist, or drawing formulas from things that are already in place. And yet, instead of trying to use these formulas as formulas for every form known to man, I think the approach of using such things as guidlines, as starting and ending places, something to help with the creative process, is the way to think - then you can begin with the drawing board, and even a little math, form a form in your head, and then go to the lathe with something to shoot for, rather than just ending up with something that might be good, or it might just look like crap.

David

Re: Designing with Triangles?

RonZ

>Well your posts have been saved in my file called Tompkin's Triangle rule. I think I understand it better and I'll play with it when I get back from my trip to the US. That should give me about a month before the boys start their school season and I'll see how it flies by them.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Russ Fairfield

>Keith,

You asked.

"Does this seem too "contrived" for your taste, reducing an art form to a basic formula?"

Not "contrived" at all. And, not at all a new concept. It may be new to woodturning, but I am sure that if I have been able to see it, then someone else has done the same thing and about 3000 years sooner.

You are describing the way our mind works as we try to reduce complex shapes and forms into more simple ones that are easier for us to accept and comprehend. We are always trying to see the complex in simpler terms in order to better understand them. When we can do this, we like the form because it "fits", we are relaxed with it, and we like it. When we can't, we don't like the form because we can never get it to "fit", and our mind has to keep working at it. The triangle works because it is the simplest of the geometric shapes.

I think you will also discover that the "Golden Mean" will still be at work here, and that the same ratio might make a more "pleasing" triangle.

By all means, write the article. The academic side of woodturning has been neglected for too long. There really is more to this woodturning stuff than tool technique. Learning these other things is the path to doing our own art, and no longer having to copy what someone else has done. A few of us have a natural gift for seeing shapes and forms, but the rest of us need all the help we can get.

The missing ingredient in all of this is the curve, the shape of the line. That other simplest of forms, the circle, and in particular the oval, can be used to draw the "fair curves" within the triangle.

I can also argue the case that the circle and oval can replace the triangle as that "simpler form". But that could be the topic of another article.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Arch

>Hi Russ, As usual your clear thinking hits the mark. Forgive me, but I can't resist paraphrasing G.K. Chesterson... 'Like morality, good design consists of drawing the line somewhere'.

Arrrgh, Arch

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Russ Fairfield

>Thanks Arch,

That is the "line" I was looking for.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Keith Tompkins

>The Tompkins Triangle? Sounds ominous, but I think it has a nice ring to it! LOL. Ron, let me know how the students react to the idea. Thanks,Keith

Re: Designing with Triangles?

John Lucas

>Keith

hurry up and write the article. I have to lecture on this at the end of the month. One of the problems I wrestle with when teaching is how to apply design princples or more to the point how to get the students to apply the principals.

Of course it's just as important to be able to teach them. I don't think there has been an easy to understand article on design for a long time. I vaguely remember two article in the journal and willhave to look them up but if I remember correctly one was so deep I never did understand it and the other one required the use of a scientific calculator (which I can't operate). I think it would be a good article.

Another good trick is to draw circles inside the parts of the triangles and then connect them with larger circles from outside the triangle. This forms some nice ogee shapes. I only have a few minutes to write this or I would draw a couple and scan them. Maybe tomorrow night. I have company pulling in the driveway as we speak. See ya.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Doug Trembath

>As usual, Russ, you cut through and neatly form the heart of the discussion, and distill it down to its essence.

I agree with Keith's idea that this is an easier concept for the wanna-be who doesn't possess the inherent understanding of shape. I think it adds a wonderful example and method of visualising the shapes that are available, and in fact illustrates the approach of making shapes that are more universally acceptable to others, like the application of the Golden Mean. All duly justified in the art and craft world, and, as you have so eloquently pointed out, for 3000 years.

Let's not forget, though, to include the fact that there is also a jumping off place out there which results in a shape that is less predictable, that captivates us, yet makes us wonder if we like it or not, that breaks the rules only to certify them, as the exception. It begs us to keep looking, to try to find a comfort level, or a convenient pigeonhole in which to place it, so we can readily resolve the dilemma. I try to find shapes occasionally that challenge the observer to identify with them, and sometimes succeed. These are much more satisfying than the ones that are, although beautiful, quite predictable in the end.

Doug Trembath

Studio in the Woods

Post them, John, please

Carol Reed, Strawberry, AZ

>nice ogees have always eluded me.

I am following this thread with great interest. I am a pretty fair 'mechanic' but my design skills leave way too much to be desired. :-)

Re: Designing with Triangles?

adrien

>Keith, I believe what you are making is what was called in my geometry class in high school an isosceles triangle. Any triangle with two equal sides can be generated by two right angle triangles.

How well this translates into an ideal bowl shape is for the mathematicians in our group to prove.

Re: Post them, John, please

John Lucas

>Carol

I try to do some sketching at work today so i can scan them tonight. John

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Keith Tompkins

>Adrien, you are correct; a triangle with all sides equal is known as an equilateral triangle.

I have tried almost all conceivable triangular forms, and haven't found one that would not work.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Keith Tompkins

>Thanks for the reply, Russ. You are correct, I am trying to simplify the process down to the lowest common denomitator.

If I try to use complex ideas and concepts to teach new turners, they will be overwhelmed. Simple concepts are much easier to understand and apply to the work.

A well-balanced bowl can be turned using the golden triangle as a guide, but the form will be limited to just one shape. That really limits its usefullness as a design tool. That's when I started altering the depth of the triangular forms, just to see what I could accomplish.

To my way of thinking, these formulas are just a starting point, a way to visualize form. I think these would be a good foundation on which to build....I believe I can alter the learning curve dramatically with most students.

If a turning student or new turner has little formal training or exposure to form, they are usually at a loss when it comes to making an attractive piece.

Re: Designing with Triangles?

Keith Tompkins

>HI Doug, thanks for the input. I think the whole issue for me boils down to...WE ALL HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. A newbie watching an experience turner with a chainsaw as he cuts bowl blanks would be dumbfounded. the experienced turner knows right where he needs to cut for the bowl forms he wants. The correct grain orientation, natural edge, etc...

I believe the double-fisted approach is the best: technique and design together. Now I'm trying to nail down an effective system that has a high success rate, and will shorten the learning curve.

Re: Post them, John, please

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Carol, Curious, do you think this "triangle" method would be of help to you? Why or why not?

I agree, John should post his ogee ideas....

I'm sure it would, Keith, but

Carol Reed, Strawberry, AZ

>right now I am buried in making a DVD. So your information is just something I am filing.

My main job is teaching so I am always interested in making things easier to understand, especially those intangible things like design.

I like putting things into a logical sequence, mastering the sequence and then start banging the boundaries.

I am most interested in the article you are contemplating and in John's approach as well.

Re: I'm sure it would, Keith, but

Keith Tompkins

>Thanks, Carol, Well, I have agreed with a magazine editor to write the article....so hopefully before too long.....