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I'm confused

GaryG in MD

>I just bought a can of Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac "Clear" dated "manuf 4-13-05". Brand new; should be good stuff. I expected it to be "clear". When I opened it, it was. I started using it directly out of the can, as a relatively clear, amber fluid. Then I started getting cloudy, cream-colored stuff coming up from the bottom of the can. I stirred it, and it is now very milky and cloudy. What's going on? What is it supposed to be like? Is this correct, or is it a bad can? Does the milky stuff dry "clear"? Will this stuff cloud the grain pattern? I was using it specifically because I thought it wouldn't. ...Gary

Re: I'm confused

joaz hill

>Over the counter shellac is waxed. Flakes are the best.....you have control...no wax.

Try this link.

Re: I'm confused

joaz hill

>oops. www.shellac.net

Re: Clarification

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Gary,

Most, but not all, premixed shellac you can buy retail has up to 5% wax content. That's why many woodworkers who use shellac in finishing buy dewaxed shellac dry flakes and then mix to their own specs with denatured alchohol. Even many luthiers will buy dewaxed flakes, but they then mix in a precise percentage of wax because they use shellac as their final finish and waxy shellac is more flexible on the instruments. The main problems with waxy shellac is adhesion of other finishes, and less resistence to water damage. Water based or waterborne finishes will not do well at all as top coats over waxy shellac, and even some oil finishes will suffer adhesion problems.

The paint store does, however, carry one very good premixed dewaxed shellac product. It's also made by Zinsser and it called "Seal Coat". It's roughly equivalent to dewaxed "pale" or "blond" shellac, but is made through a reportedly patented process that extends its shelf life by a substantial margin. This is not to be confused with the Zinsser's Bull's Eye Shellac that can be found in most paint stores.

The product you have now can be "helped" if you let it sit for a week or more and then carefully decant the clear liquid that raises to the top. The stuff on the bottom is the wax content. After you decant the clear, you can try to filter out some of the wax in the remaining product.

I mix my shellac from dry flakes which I buy (along with my waterborne finishes and tung oil products) from Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing (.com).

If however, you don't plan to top coat the shellac with other finishes, the product you have will do very nicely. I seem to remember that it comes as 3 pound cut material which will do better as a wood finish if reduced to 2, or even 1-1/2, pound cut. You can extend mixed shellac's shelf life by keeping it in the frig, but do not open the can/jar until it has warmed up to room temp to avoid condensation.

Hope this helps.

Mark Mandell

2 lb cut

John, Ohio

>So after you weigh the flakes say 1/4 lb how much alcohol do you mix with it to get a two pound cut?

Re: 2 lb cut

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>1 pint

2 lb to the gallon (of alcohol), thus 1/2 pound to the quart, thus 1/4 lb to the pint.

Re: Clarification

Ron in Drums PA

>FYI Zinger Seal Coat is a 3lb cut.

There are directions on the can to reduce it to a 2lb and a 1lb cut.

Re: Hmmmm *LINK*

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Ron,

Zinsser lists it as a 2 lb cut product on their site [link] and that's what I remember seeing at the store. Don't have any here to check.

You sure it's the same stuff?

M


SealCoat*

Re: I'm confused

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>Gary,

It's not a bad can. What you describe is normal for canned shellac. The cloudy stuff is the shellac. It will dry clear, although you will get a little amber cast. To my knowledge, you can't get a water-clear shellac.

Zinzer's BullsEye shellac does contain a certain amount of wax, but that is not an issue unless you plan to overcoat with some other finish, like poly. The wax can interfere with the adhesion of the topcoat. If you want de-waxed shellac in a can, look for Zinzer's SealCoat. It's a clear de-waxed shellac.

I like using shellac because it's a natural product, plus I like the smell compared to other finishes. I prefer shellac in the can just because it is so easy to deal with compared to flakes.

Gary

Re: More on Shellec..>>

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>Another good article on shellac (which Russ was too modest to mention) can be found in "Russ's Corner" on the menu to the left of this frame, if you are using frames.

Here's the link if you aren't using frames:

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/russindex.shtml

Gary

Re: Clarification

GaryG in MD

>Mark,

Thanks very much for the excellent, detailed answer. I had read about the wax, but I didn't know what it meant in practical terms. Now I do.

I was hoping that the "clear" on the can meant dewaxed, but it obviously didn't -- anything but. To me that's false advertising. What exactly DOES "clear" mean, and what would I have if it were not "clear"?

So, anyway, I'll be doing some decanting -- and ordering some flakes. This turned out to be a good experience because I learned a lot. I suspect I'm not the only one, either.

Another flaky woodturner,

Gary

Re: More on Shellec..>>

GaryG in MD

>Good idea! I had forgotten that was here. It's excellent and highly recommended. ...GaryG

Re: I'm confused

GaryG in MD

>Gary,

Yes; I agree with you for exactly the same reasons. I like the whole concept of shellac as a finish. [I learned about "old" shellac years ago when I did a hall tree with some. It 'dried' in about two years. ;-0 ]

I'll be looking for some "Seal Coat". Thanks for the info.

Wax-free,

GaryG

Re: I'm confused

GaryG in MD

>Excellent site and source. I wasn't aware of it. Thanks for the link. ...Gary

Re: Clarification

Glenn Madsen in the SF Bay area

>'Clear' means that you get a transparent finish, with some ambering. It's traditional shellac, for woodfinishing.

'White Shellac', also a Zinsser product, is an excellent sealer/primer for many topcoats, as well as for sealing odors & stains in certain interior applications. Zinsser BIN is white shellac.

I've used the Zinsser Clear (waxy) as the only finish on maple cabinets in my shop, where they don't get a lot of abuse. Goes on easily, looks nice.

My current shellac of choice was the liquid shellac (German refined ultra-pale dewaxed) from Homestead. A 5 lb cut, in a quart bottle, at a very modest price premium over flake. I cut it to working consistency by volume into a squirt bottle, and I'm back to work. MUCH easier than flake. (And I've used maybe 10 lbs of flake in the last three years...)

Re: Clarification

GaryG in MD

>Hi Glenn,

Interesting. What do they put into the "clear" shellac (waxy or not) to make it "white", and how does that change its properties and applications? Does it then also act as a pore filler, or something like that? I've been using the "clear" as a sanding sealer, punk firmer, and to keep pieces from drying out and checking on the lathe when I have to leave something overnight.

Thanks for the info on the Homestead product.

Getting shellaced in MD,

Gary

Re: Clarification

GaryG in MD

>I reread Jeff Jewitt's article and see that "white" shellac is actually bleached and dewaxed. To me, "white" sounded like it was the "clear" shellac adulterated with some kind of white pigment. I now see that it's just the opposite. What's in a name? ...Gary

Re: I'm confused

RonZ

>Hi Gary,

As mentioned below, the cloudiness is normal and it will dry clear. Cloudiness aside, as mentioned in the articles, unless sepcified de-waxed, the blonder or lighter shellacs contain less wax.

I don't do much flatwork so I'll give my two shekels worth on shellac use for turning. I have found [after trying quite a few different brands and types of shellacs] that Mylands is the most superior shellac finish for turning. I certainly don't use regular shellacs as they dry too quickly and have left streaking. You can avoid this by using a rubber or padding for application but why re-invent the wheel. The only one I have yet to try is Shellawax which I hear is the same. Myland's is labled as friction polish and is a blond shellac. While not 100% verified, I think that Liberon and Crafteeze is also Mylands. While the formula is secret, many feel that carnauba wax and/or rottenstone is added to give top results. It has white sediment at the bottom so it must be shaken vigerously before using but the finish will be clear with a beautiful chatoyancy if you sanded correectly. The drying is brought about by the friction of the cloth on the wood while the piece is spinning at full speed therefore building up heat. You add more coats by putting a few drops [of course ammount is relative to the size of the piece] to the cloth and rubbing across the piece. A good indicator of how your finish is doing is to look at your application cloth, the thicker the shellac on your cloth, the thicker the coating on the cloth, the thicker the finish will be on your piece. One of the best features about friction polish is that dries in seconds so a start to finish application of a few coats. The main thing to remember is your application cloth should always be moving in order to avoid developing rings. Should you get rings, just apply more friction polish and go over the surface again. When finished use brown wrapping paper [Russ's idea] to burnish the finish and add pure carnauba stick wax if you want extra protection on the finish. If I do larger work, I use my own homemade shellac finish shich is 1/3 shellac flakes, 1/3 artists linseed oil, and 1/3 denatures alcohol. I have two type, one with regular flakes for a warm orangish glow and blond for a clear as possible finish. While some might pursue a clearer finish, I personally think that depending on the application, pure white is too sterile for finished work.

Re: Re-Clarification

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Gary,

Zinsser BIN is actually white and is used as a stain killer and sealer on plaster and s-rock. It has white pigment added.

Re: Hmmmm

Ron in Drums PA

>Yes, I just bought can a few days ago to try out. Right on the can it says it's a 3lb cut and directions on how to reduce the cut.

Re: I'm confused

GaryG in MD

>Ron, Thanks for closing the loop. This is very good practical info, obviously based on a lot of experience, and I'll make use of it. ...GaryG