Old BLO question

Re: Old BLO question - long answer

JL

>You said: "I have about a half gallon of BLO that is several years old and is getting pretty thick. I think I heard somewhere earlier that this stuff should be discarded. Why? Is there any reason why I shouldn't just thin it down with some mineral spirits and use it? Matter of fact, my plan is to put on a couple coats of this stuff and then finish it off with a couple, three coats of danish oil for a semi gloss finish."

Chemsitry type comments. Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) is "basically" refined linseed oil that has been "boiled" and modified. It contains a variety of fatty acids (linoleic, linolenic, oleic, stearic) hooked to a glycerol "backbone" by an ester linkage. As a somewhat "natural" product, it can (and does) spoil. The thickening is usually caused by the unsaturated fatty acids cross-linking or polymerizing.

Can you thin it? Of course you can. But it isn't like you will have the same type of material. You are not really "depolymerizing" the polymerized material. You are just separating the polymerized "chunks". This is similar to what you do when you stir a can of polyurethane. As the BLO is partially polymerized already, you may not get as even a coat on application. It also won't cure up as well as free flowing BLO. I would try a test piece (or two) before I tried the old stuff. I'd hate to see a piece ruined.

My $0.02.

Re: Old BLO question - short answer

John Trant (Baltimore/DC area)

>JL is right. You can use it but the finish will not be as hard and it will take longer to completely harden (i.e., polymerize). Eventually, your aged BLO will simply not fully harden.

If you are looking for a finish for something like tea lights, then you can use it for a while longer, but do not resist throwing it away when it gets to be a problem. You can buy BLO at your neighborhood big box cheaply enough. Personally, I would not mess with old finish; it is just "false economy".

John

That's it then

Wolf Kiessling

>that's what I was looking for. Into the trash it goes. I will just go with the danish oil.

Which begs a question...

Glenn Madsen in the SF Bay area

>If oil soaked rags are a spontaneous combustion hazard, is there a recommended disposal method for this old product?

As long as the can remains sealed, everything is OK, I suppose. But is there a better way?

Re: Which begs a question...

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Many communities have "homeowner haz-mat" disposal days at which you can rid yourself of stuff like batteries, plus stale gas and auto fluids, paint, used thinners and solvents of up to 10-15 gallons total. Check with your local authority or even your fire department for information.

That was the only way I could get rid of the 15 gals of dish detergent that I wasted buying into that soap-soaking fiasco. I ended up with 15 gal. of semi-gelled wood extractives in a surfactant base. Even the guys at the Haz-Mat lookied a bit concerned at the stuff until the on-site chemist in charge checked it out and went away chuckling.

Re: Which begs a question...

Stuart Johnson

> "Many communities have "homeowner haz-mat" disposal days at which you can rid yourself of stuff like batteries, plus stale gas and auto fluids, paint, used thinners and solvents"

For the most part you have described the ditches on two sides of my house. Toss in beer cans and wine bottles and you have the third.

Stuart in dry part of

Red Oak, Texas

Re: No question...

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Stu,

There's some real estate in Upstate NY that you might consider investing in. Sounds rather idylic. It's called the "The Love Canal", near the old Hooker Chem plant. Also a couple of spots here in Jersey that might make you feel right at home; so long as you don't mind well water that glows in the dark.

|;-}}}

Re: That's it then - to trash or not to trash

JL

>Rags - I let my rags dry thoroughly then toss them. I let the old cans of finish (polyurethane, BLO, Waterlox, Tung oil) air dry then toss them. Paint thinner remains stored in jugs and jars - when the solids settle, I decant (pour carefully) the liquid into new jars or jugs through muslin or cheesecloth. I reuse it as a "first" rinse for cleaning brushes, etc. After it gets too dark (or cloudy), it is used as firestarter for burning brush and scrap wood (in burning season). I am seriously thinking about getting one of the outdoor chimeneras (sp?) or fire rings so I can burn without a pit.

Soap soaking fiasco?

Dan Moening

>I was under the impression most folks found soap soaking to be a nice alternative to alcohol soaking.

I don't recall reading anything that would rate it as a fiasco, but I've obviously missed your input.

As I was planning on a trip to Costco this weekend, could you share your experiences again, and save me the expense?

Dan.

Re: Soap soaking fiasco?

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>I made the mistake of trying to use the process on a number of cherry and walnut bowls. While they did not crack (mostly), the detergent "pulled a film" over the grain such that when finished it looked dull and lifeless as did the grain on walnut and even some Ambrosia Maple.

I found that the pieces distorted just as much as in the "normal" drying process. What I got for free, however, was an applied lesson in organic chemistry. Seems that soaking wet wood in an "ionic surfactant" (dish soap) releases the extractives in the wood as part of the exchange. Those extractives are . . . protein-based. Once out of the wood and into the soap they form long chain molecules in the detergent and the liquid begins to gel. I wound up with 15 gallons of a semi-gelatenous mass that I had to hold for the local toxic waste cleanup day, all the while being ribbed by friends with reminders to keep CO2 extinguishers and other sources of instant cold handy in case the stuff started to move.

Since I was doing this as kind of an experiment, I did an equal number of bowls from the same logs, but only wax-sealed and bagged them for drying.

In the final analysis, my "success rate" for uncracked was no different between soaked and unsoaked bowls, so long as I paid proper attention to centering the grain structure in the blanks and cutting consistent wall thickness in the roughouts. Coupled with the marked dulling effects on grain color and "life," my view is the process is worthless; at least for "my kind" of turning.

Your mileage may very, of course, but I'm leaving the dish soap in the kitchen.

I converted the soak-can to better use. I've got the best-smelling recycling container on the block!

M

Thank you Mark!

Dan Moening

>I guess I've only been focused on the actual turning portion of this process and not what becomes of the solution.

I think I'll pass...I can make jelly any number of other ways. ;^)

Dan.

Re: Thank you Mark!

Bill Howatt

>I tried the soap method when it was highly publicized some time ago. It worked but I didn't find it any better than my rough-turn, store in shavings and big paper bag method (sometimes with anchorseal on the end-grain). I abandoned it just because I don't care about drying time and it was messy plus taking up space.

I know some people think it is a great method.

Bill

Re: Soap soaking fiasco?

GaryG in MD

>Hey Mark,

Verrry interesting. When I began turning, not knowing the full LDD history that you just related, I found a ref to the LDD soak and have tried it on a few blanks. It seemed to work ok -- I even got a red oak rim to dry uncracked right up to the center of the pith. BUT, I haven't finished any yet, and I certainly won't tolerate a muddy appearance.

When I saw your comment, I tried looking in the Archive and found waaaay too many hits to be able to pursue. Your current post is very much to the point. Since you WERE the soap guru, would you mind going a step further for us newbies and relate any other "consensus" info you gleaned from others sharing your experiments a year or two ago? I think it might be helpful to a lot of people who understand the success of Dave Smith's alcohol method but may not want to have many gallons of explosive liquid in the basement, and who also read in current posts that the boiling method ain't all that great either.

In particular, did other people find the same dulling effect (not that I don't believe you!)? Were there other negatives? How many blanks before you got jello? etc., etc. Even though your post is very clear, I would appreciate hearing any other words you might care to add.

Thanks a lot,

Gary

Re: Getting Soaked

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Gary,

First, I was anything but the "Soap Guru." I just decided to approach it with a "show me" attitude.

The process got started by a pro-turner (Ron Kent) who was looking for a substitute for the pricey Pentacryl stuff sold to help stabilize wood during drying. He wanted to be able to finish-turn from green wood and sell the stuff within a few days. Once posted on The Net, his method took on a life of its own at about the speed of a keystroke, and forums were flooded with testimonials; this was obviously a great discovery, especially for those turners who couldn't wait 4-6 months for their roughouts to dry in bags.

People who tried it seemed to note how well the wood sanded and other perceived advantages including, allegedly, much less warping and cracking with no effect on finishes.

As a relatively new turner, I figured "why not?" but Mom's training in "Sounds Too Good" issues cautioned me to be a bit reserved. Ma was right again.

Dave "Da Hooch" Smith has taken a very different approach in that he applied an "old" technology (alcohol dessication used in labs) to a new venue. He's not pushing this as a done deal, but rather is asking, with approtriate caveats, for people to join what amounts to an ongoing research project, and to keep and share records of what they do, how, and their results.

I'm not going out and buying 15 gallons of alcohol to soak large work, but I am trying a couple a gallons in a bucket OUT IN THE SHED to see how things go. I'm not so impatient or compulsive that I can't wait for a few months to let a piece dry with stresses relieved etc. Wood's wood so if I want to work/play with it, I accept it's limitations along with its strengths.

I'll let you know next year how my tiny part in the project turns out. |:-}}

Re: Getting Soaked

GaryG in MD

>Mark,

Thanks for the reply -- my reply was so far down in the thread, I wasn't sure you'd see it.

I began using LDD but was curious why there isn't any discussion about it now on the Board. I did an Archive search, but there was just too much there to research fully; I tried some sampling of the posts, but didn't find a definitive point at which someone said "This doesn't work; don't do it." So your comment about muddying the grain pattern was a watershed for me. It means I have to completely rethink what I'm doing. It's too bad, because I was happy with the soap -- since it's safe to have around. Now I don't know what to do -- I guess I'll have to just wax and wait. That seems to be the consensus procedure now for those not comfortable with the safety aspects of alcohol (which functionally seems to be a very good approach).

Thanks again for your heads up.

Gary