>I am having a bit of buyer's remorse for having just placed an on-line order for a tool made out of one of the "super abrasion resistant" steels. I'm considering cancelling my order and re-ordering a tool made out of a "lesser" steel.
What is my reasoning?..........while doing some surfing yesterday, I read that one very high profile turner is quite emphatic that the harder particle steels like ASP 2060 and V-15 are just too brittle for a cutting edge. He says that ASP 2030 and M4 are fine though.
What has been your experience, if anything, as far as brittle cutting edges with the super steels?
>Almost all my tools are Hamlet 2060 and I can vouch for them. I mostly work on exotics and local wood. The wood here in Israel is hard at best such as the olive, Indian rosewood, carob, and eucalyptus. I wish we had wet maple here to play with. The point is that at least in my experience they do keep an edge and are not britle. Is the 2060 worth more than the 2030, I can't answer that. I bought 2060 because I'm a dealer and can support my habit. =o)
I did hear that regular M2 steel can get a sharper edge than 2030 or 2060 due to the coarser structure of the harder metals.
>My favorite bowl gouge is a Hamlet 2060. I get a good sharp edge and the tool holds the edge well. One caution, don't quench the tool in water after grinding a new edge. That will make the edge brittle.
I can only relate what I have learned from Stuart Batty - all of my own tools except one are regular M2 steel.
Stuart is a friend of Glaser, live a mile from him, and he is convinced that the V-15 metals five the best performance - strength, edge retention, etc for the money. With most steel as you get harder, you get more brittle, but there are reasonable compromises.
If you think of the edge holding of an M2 (HHS) gouge as a One (optimum edge holds for about 10-20 seconds. Remember that is optimum not total. A gouge of 2030 or M-4 will give you a 2-3 times that, a 2060 4.5 times, A-11 maybe 6. V-15 may be as much as 8 times, however is very brittle. Stuart uses Sorby m2 - admiting that he reps for Sorby and gets them free, and he uses A-11 Glasers.
>It is a generally an accept fact that M2 will accept a finer edge than the harder steels. It will not keep that edge as long as some of the harder steels keep the edge you can get on them. A good, but extreme, example is comparing carbite to HSS. Carbite will hold the edge MUCH longer, but you can not get near as fine of a razor edge on it.
When working with wood I find M2 works well for me. If I sharpen a tool before starting a project I rarely have to do anything to it except a quick pass on a buffing wheel before I am done.
Another example is carving tools. Most modern tools are made from M2 because they need a razor edge. The harder steels can not be gotten as sharp.
>I have several 1/2-inch gouges. A Sorby, a Henry Taylor, 2 Glasers and a Hamlet 2060. Maybe it's just me, but I see little if any difference in the edge on any of them. The edge on the Glaser and the Hamlet lasts a little longer. Not 4 times as long as is advertised, however.
>Hi Wally, the only difference I have noticed is that the 2060 and the Pro-PM gouges don't like to be sharpened on 60 grit low speed wheels. The edge is coarse and tends to break away when turning. 120 grit seems fine. As far as longer time between sharpening....maybe a bit, but not a tremendous amount.
>Right Keith...I sharpen my gouges on a 120 grit wheel too. Gives a fairly smooth edge. I use a 60 grit wheel to put a burr on scrapers. For very hard dense woods I use the 120 for a finer burr. Gives a very smooth surface on the wood.
>Since Jerry Glaser's name came up in this regard, I'll share an experience I had with him at his house a couple of years ago. I asked him point blank about the ability to get the V15 steel as sharp as the softer steel, and he demonstrated that this is a common misnomer.
He had a tiny handplane, (I think it was a Stanley #1, by the way,) and was taking shavings you could see through on soft white pine boards. These were like gossamer. Of course as soon as I saw that, I wanted to buy some blades like that, but he explained that he had had this one made up from V15 just to demonstrate that his V15 steel can be sharpened just as sharp as the other steels. Made a believer out of me.
Personally, I use the Norton SG wheel, which can be graded fron 36 grit all the way to what I believe would be about 250. Mike Mahoney showed me that trick long ago. If your grinder is smooth running, and if you have the wheel prepped, you can just dance the edge on the stone and get a really sharp edge, removing a minimal amount of metal. That's my experience. As far as the edge retention, I, like Wallyand others, haven't really been able to notice a vast difference. Maybe I just don't pay as much attention, but I like to keep a fresh edge so I don't have to sand as much.
>This topic has been gone over extensively on the handtool board.
Many of the folks using and making handplane irons want exactly what we turners are looking for,a sharp edge that lasts.Bill Tindal has been advocating CPM-3V as good for both planing and turning but more importantly he has pretty much debunked the myth that high tech steels will not get as sharp.It comes down to this,they will get as sharp you just have to use a different abrasive and it takes more time.
Back to turning,I think you`ll find that if you refine the edge after grinding(as in honing,I know it takes longer)the edge will hold together better and the edge will not seem as"brittle".Grinding produces a rough edge of points or "teeth" like a serated knife.it should be no surprise that the tips of the teeth break off first as they`re unsupported.
Look around at what knifemakers and handtool guys are using and the way they are solving thier problems.Some truths really are universal.
Mainely,Bob
PS-While I wouldn`t call the particle steels more brittle,they do break easier.I know one fellow in our club who snapped 2 Glaser gouges.It was his technique not the tools that were in question.He would have bent an M2 gouge.
>Well, there are a lot of people who say they get just as sharp an edge on the longer wearing steels, and it seems like the edge will hold up well if you prepare a good edge to begin with.
However, the steel IS more brittle -- meaning it will break under conditions where a softer steel would bend. I am in the habit of checking for round when roughing cylinders with the back of my roughing gouge. One day I was rounding up a nearly triangular segment of firewood (curly Maple), and thought it was pretty nearly round. When I applied the back of my new 3/4" roughing gouge to the spinning wood, instead of getting a clock-clock-clock sound telling me there was still a flat section, I got a very loud PING ! and most of the expensive 2060 steel went over my head and landed on the floor behind me -- the handle, and about 1/2" of tang was still in my hand.
BTW: It was a Hamlet tool I bought from Jacques Coulombe, in Montreal, PQ, Canada, who cheerfully replaced the tool -- nice guy. I've been using the replacement gouge for about 2 years, and like it very much -- though as Lyn Mangiamelli suggested in one of his tool reviews, they probably ought to re-design the tang on some tools to accomodate the more brittle steel alloys. I've had no trouble with a PM detail gouge, or another 2060 bowl gouge.
Part of Stuart Batty's presentation is that the additional time taken honing any gouge with metal under V-15 is usually not returned at the lathe. i.e. 1 minute honing does not give you 1 minute or more extra optimum sharpness. He does believe that honing is worth it on V-15.
