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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

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Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

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Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#1

Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

RonZ

>This is posted in response to Doug Trembath below and possibly others might benifit from it or would like to comment.

I don't think you'll get an actual grit rating on 0000 steel wool or buffing compounds as their composition is not like abrasive paper

Sandpaper:

It leaves scratches hence stopping at 400 and using material that will leave less such as 0000 steel wool or 3M synthetic equivalent for example. The random placement of the abrasive such as 0000 steel wool or tripoli on a buffing wheel randomly leave striations that are less noticeable than abrasive paper striations as applied on the lathe, unidirectional.

Even finishing up to 12000 via micro-mesh will leave scratches but they are undecernable by the naked eye.

Myland�s Sanding sealer

Here you want to stop at 400 because any further sanding with higher grits will close the woods pores and not allow the finish to meld with the wood. This is the key phrase here, you're now making the finish and wood one. Additional applications of sanding sealer will then build on top of that as will the finish of your choice. I usually apply two coats. I will add here that I would use Myland�s melamine finish instead of continuing using the sanding sealer as Mike did, even though the properties are similar. I usually apply 2-3 coats of the melamine to make sure I have a tough finish before heading for the buffing wheel. I will also not use carnauba stick as I don't know how well it will meld with the melamine. I will use carnauba/bee paste wax [Myland's or equivalent] as it is tolulyne based and the thinner will assist in partial melding.

Steel wool - 0000

I first heard this rated at around 600 by Alan Holtham a professional turner in the UK. I then heard it from many other word of mouth sources. You can establish the correlation between 0000 steel wool and tripoli by taking a hand rubbed shellac finish, for example, that has been done the same way since the early 1800s and the introduction as shellac as a finish. Almost all professionals recommend 0000 after 400 grit hence being the next grade in grit ~600. The next step to obtain a higher gloss is to use rottenstone, the component used in Tripoli.

You can read Jeff Jewitt�s article on padding shellac here:

http://www.assoc-restorers.com/r-articles/padding_shellac.html

Buffing

As far as buffing numbers you must be thinking rouges instead of the tripoli and white diamond compounds. 20,000 grit is about one micron, not really applicable for woodworking.

They are usually rated as follows:

Tripoli is listed as a cutting compound, has the active ingredient rottenstone and is recommended for mild cutting action for copper, brass, and aluminum. This is good for the removal of lines left from the application of your finish.

White diamond has the active ingredient of tin oxide and is listed as an intermediate compound between cutting and polishing. It may be used for plastics and will cut and gloss in one operation. This is good for taking your project from the tripoli stage to a gloss finish.

Some have rated Tripoli at 1200 and white diamond at 2000 so to be safe one can give a range of 800-1200 for Tripoli and 1200-2000 for white diamond. Either way the sequence remains the same.

Additional References:

http://www.sydneywoodturners.com.au/site/articles/finishing/buffing.html

http://www.dicoproducts.com/buff_instructs.html#Definitions

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/buffing-material.htm

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/rubbingout.htm

Thanks for looking and I'm always open to suggestions and corrections.

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#2

FEPA or CAMI

John Trant (Baltimore/DC area)

>One note I would like to make is that writers of these methods should indicate to which system of sandpaper grit grades they are refering. In an international forum like the web, it really is imperitive to designate the FEPA system (P-Grade) or the CAMI system (US primarily?). This is particularly true when we are discussing these higher grit numbers. P-600 still has quite a bite to it whereas CAMI 600 is quite gentle.

John

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#3

Re: FEPA or CAMI

RonZ

>You're right but what I can tell you is that on this side of the pond we use P paper.

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#4

Re: FEPA or CAMI

Jim D. Clayton, NJ

>I do not recall where I found this, but below is a comparison of the two most commonly used standards.

Jim D.

USA Eurropean

60 P80

80 P100

120 P150

180 P180

220 P220

240 P280

280

P360

320 P400

P500

360 P600

400 P800

500 P1000

600 P1200

P1500

800 P2000

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#5

I can Find Both

Jim Shaver, Oakville Ontario

>Hi,

I can find both kinds on this Side of the pond.

take care,

Jim

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#6

Re: FEPA or CAMI *LINK*

John K Jordan

>>I don't recall where I found this...

Jim, there is a similar chart published recently in FWW.

JKJ in East TN


CAMI vs. FEPA

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#7

Re: I can Find Both

RonZ

>I'm in Israel and can get both if I want to. Camel abrasives here carries Norton. I use Mirka that I got from the UK and is P rated.

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#8

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [lo

John Trant (Baltimore/DC area)

>The above comments concerning the availability of P vs CAMI grades of papers in the various countries are true and informative but beg the question for the need to making some notation concerning the standards we are using when refering to sandpaper grit. Otherwise, the information is potentially misleading. It is certainly important to us when we are in the shop. I don't even store my CAMI 600 paper in the same sleeve with my P-600 paper.

In our future posts, can we agree to use the "P" designation when refering to FEPA grades and "C" for CAMI grades. Perhaps a simple statement at the beginning of the post as to which standard you are using would be best.

Just a thought.

John

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#9

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [lo

Doug Trembath

>Ron, I don't normally carry a disagreement to this extent, but I really feel your logic is flawed. As I pointed out, my recollection of the numbers may be a bit fuzzy, but I know from experience that the polishing sequence requires increasingly smaller grit sizes to effect a smoother surface with each step.

Like the others who have posted, referring to the recent absolutely mind-numbing article in FWW, I have been avoiding the conundrum by using what I find works best. I have been using this process close to 20 years in finishes, be it automotive type paints, or wood finishes, and for much longer than that in polishing metal and stone.

I sand my pieces up to 2500 (automotive type wet or dry), then add the finish to seal in the polish. I use shellac, lacquer, and oil based finishes. If needed, I wet sand the final coats with, again, 2500, and while it is certainly smooth, it results in a very low sheen. Call it magic, or whatever, but polishing the finish with a polishing compound makes the scratches succeedingly smaller, until the desired level of gloss is achieved.

Your blithe statements regarding the process Mike is using, and citing your wide range of references don't necessarily affirm that you have a full understanding of the processes you are commenting on, and your wording leaves much to be desired if your aim is to illuminate us with your knowledge. In the final analysis, the proof is in the pudding, as the old saying goes. I have read extensively on finishing and finishes, and been party to long involved conversations with some of the folks you cite as references. I use and experiment with a wide variety of finishing materials, and have developed the ability to achieve just about any level of gloss I choose with any of them. Mike has demonstrated and posted results here that indicate he can do the same thing. It's kind of difficult to accept when someone tells us we are doing it wrong after we have received praise and wonderment from folks we admire and respect.

Doug Trembath

Studio in the Woods

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [long]

#10

Re: Dissertation on finishing materials , etc. [lo

RonZ

>If you'll look in my comment after Mike got upset [not my intention at all] that he labled his post as an easy finish for newbies. I believe my process to be even easier, not that his is wrong or my way is the only way. hence my reason for posting.

I'm not an expert and have never professed to be one. I have learned extensively about woodturning from a wide range of experts and I have absorbed what they told me. This is the information I'm passing on. The majority being from the UK or Australia, perhaps this is our line of dissagreement. If you gain something from what I posted then fine, if you don't that's fine too. I posted what I consider to be true with links backing that up and strong inferences to establish a sound scientific theory. No it's not biblical.

As an aside, I sell Myland's finishes here in Israel so I have nothing financially to gain by posting here nor do I recieve a share from US sales. I sell it because it works. I do know that I have received a breakdown of their products and instruction from them and who would know better? I do know that I have outdone my first woodturning teacher in obtaining a high quality finish on my work using the methods and materials mentioned and this one item the local woodturners here ask me to demontrate. I have a degree in engineering and analyze my work processes as such.

Taking friction polish as an example it's a cloudy material that I can use to obtain a very high gloss with little or no striations on plates and bowls up to 9" and have made large table pillars using the same.

You're welcome to view my work and see the results for yourself. I never finish a wooden piece with any sandpaper higher than P400 and cut back with steel wool. Whether the finish is friction polish, melamine, woodfinishing oil or tung oil. One thing you won't catch me doing is using lacquers other than what I mentioned. IMHO the finishes that I use display chatoyancy that I haven't found in lacquers.

Again, the main reason I posted what I did was not to show what I know but to let people know out there that there is an easier way. I never said your way was wrong, I did suggest you might be expending time money and resources that might not be necessary.

You know for a while the world really did believe the earth was square, too. =o)

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