Boxes?

Re: Boxes?

tek-Brunswick, Ohio

>Boxes should be finish turned from dry wood. You could rough them out in green wood, but they have to be completely dry before fitting the lid. Funny you should mention the DNA method. I'm giving it a try myself for boxes. I have two beech boxes roughed out . They have been in DNA, and are now drying. I'll let you know how the boxes come out. Some of the better box makers rough out even kiln dried wood. They let the box sit for a day or so before final turning. It lets the wood move to relieve the stresses in the piece. The wood is not supposed to move and change shape as much after the final turning that way. I've made some boxes, but not enough to know how much that helps. I know it can't hurt.

Tom

Re: Boxes?

Dan Moening in Sacramento

>As I look at all the wonderful vessels with collars and lidded boxes I'm struck with the same questions.

I've always suspected that both {all} materials would have to be dry.

I'll be watching to see with everyone has to say.

Dan.

Re: Boxes?

keith zimmerman, Normal, IL

>Carole, I have done a couple of boxes from green wood and found that my results are rather unpredictable.

The first one, done in spalted mulberry, was unable to be opened for several months until the wood was completely dry, and that may have been only because the side of the box was open.

The second box I did as a demo at IndyFest and was from green cherry. I had no problem fitting the lid to the box with a snap fit, or completing the box. However, within an hour, the lid was so tight that it could not be removed. I can only hope that it will dry in such a way that it does not crack.

I plan to do more green boxes and experiment with alcohol drying.

keithz

Re: Boxes?

Michael Stafford

>I turn a lot of boxes, my primary turning interest. I rough turn all my boxes from kiln dried wood and let them sit taped top to bottom so they can acclimate. I found I had better results when I let the wood on the inside stabilize to the environment. No green box turning experience to report...

Re: Boxes?

Chris Wright

>Carol,

I have made a large number of boxes and hollow forms with collars and on both the wood does need to be very dry to achieve the desired results. This does not mean that you can't rough out green wood in preparation for one of these forms. If you rough green wood out for a box form, remember to leave the spigot in the lid smaller than needed and the tenon in the body larger to accomodate truing them up and fitting to size.

If the moisture content of the wood is in question, rough out the form and let it sit for a couple of days. This will allow you to identify if it will immediately move or not.

You mentioned, "even dry wood moves", yes this is a fact of our lives. Finishing the piece will help aleviate this some as a oil based finish will help it dry more slowly and hopefully more evenly. With my dry wood, I try to let the stock sit for a month or so before turning boxes to let the piece stabilize to my environment. This also seems to help.

One other point to mention is that boxes work better over the long run if they are turned end grain. This will limit much of the movement to the vertical axis and will affect the join less.

Hope this helps,

Chris

Re: Boxes?

Chris Wright

>I forgot to mention, I posted a link for you to an article I wrote on turning boxes like the Kingwood box I posted. The link is in my reply to that photo.

Re: Boxes?

Ron in Drums PA

>

I rough turned this then soaked in DNA. The only problem I had was by the rim where I made in inside bigger than the outside.

Don't be afraid to experiment, it's only wood!

Re: Boxes?

Greg in Oshkosh

>The best method for turning green wood into boxes was demonstrated at our club by Ron Warshall. He hollows the top and bottom leaving everything about 1/4 -3/8"or so thick. The spigots stay on the top and bottom.

He then microwaves the piece on low power setting(defrost) If the piece gets hot in the microwave(like hot rather than warm to the touch) decrease the time. Allow the piece to cool between microwave cycles. Measure the weight with a gram scale. When the weight stops changing it's done.

Note that this is already a thin piece and so dries after only a few cycles. It also doesn't need alot of time to get it hot. If you cook it too hot it can get small cracks in the surface.

Allow the piece to equlibrate for a day and then remount and finish turn.

I would say no.

Jennifer@Indy.USA

>Carole I havent' read the other's responses, but I would say not to waste your time. Boxes need to be turned from dry stable wood. DAMHIKT!

I've been dissapointed too many times. I probably don't turn many boxes becasue I'm too impatient to rough turn them and wait. I'm one of those instant gratification people.

There may be a way to do them green, I suppose I should read the other responses...there might be a fantastic secret in there somewhere!

Jennifer

YES -- but not very quickly

Brad Vietje

>Sure Carole,

You need to rough 'em out and dry them real good before finish turning. The Richard Raffan video/DVD has all the details.

The problem is in waiting for the wood to air dry. I rough out box blanks whenever I want to save some wood that has cracked from sitting in log form too long, or nice wood that was neglected (left in the sun, or not waxed) -- I just turn box blanks between the cracks. You can also find some great box turning wood in forewood piles -- I've found some amazingly curly Maple this way.

I've microwaved a few box blanks, but I usually just fill a box with 18 - 20 top/bottom pairs, taped top of top to bottom of bottom, and let them dry for 6 months to a year or more.

If you need boxes right away, use KD wood, and even then rough them out one day and finish turn a day or two later. If you are going to ship them to a different climate, they may still warp, even if made from kild dried stock.

Safe Spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Re: Boxes?

John Lucas

>Greg

That's the method I use. In my old shop the moisture content of the shop was too high so I would microwave kiln dried wood just to make sure it was dry enough to make a good box.

Re: Boxes?

Fog Tanner

>You can use green wood if you don't mind it going oval. I roughed out a dozen boxes from pecan and another six from walnut. They have all gone a little oval, some more than others. I roughed them out in Janurary and don't look to finish them before December or next year. Even with mesquite, I rough them out and let them sit but not as long as the pecan or walnut.

Even with dry wood, air dried or kiln dried, you need to rough hollow the inside and let the blank sit for a little while to stabilize. I have had kiln dried ash move enough to change the fit after removing the stress in the wood. I now let the wood stabalize for a little while before the final shaping and fitting. I think that Raffan mentions that in his book on boxes. He also made the same observation at a hands on workshop.

Re: Boxes?

George Balock

>Carole,

I recently had some success drying a box blank on top of my oil heater, The top of the heater never gets too hot to touch, so I though what the heck. It worked well going to dryness from green in about 6 weeks. Good Luck,

George

Re: Boxes?

Russ Fairfield

>The answer to this one should be self evident.

Wood moves when it is dried. Dry wood moves when it is cut and internal stresses are relieved.

Both require turning oversize and waiting until the movement has stopped and the wood has assumed a stable shape before making the final fit of the lid, if you want a tight fit that stays that way.

Mixed results

Dominic Greco at home in Richboro, PA

>Carol,

I was in on the early end of the alcohol soak technique (AST) testing and I can tell you what I found when I attempted to use the AST on a piece of wet Chechen.

After several weeks of sitting, the lid does not fit on the body as well as it did when I first turned it. To be brutally honest, the lid hardly fits at all.

Oddly enough, a Kingwood box I soaked and then turned is fine. I attribute this to the design of the lid which can hide some of the distortion.

I think that if I had allowed these roughed out, then AST soaked boxes to sit on my "drying" shelf for a longer period of time, I would not have seen as much distortion. But I got impatient.

AST seems more suited for bowls and such where the slight distortion will not be noticed as much. When it comes to boxes, any change in dimension is easily noticed.

When I attempt to use AST for a roughed out box again, I will probably allow the blanks to sit around and dry a lot longer than I would a bowl blank. Maybe (2) or (3) months where I'd let a roughed out AST bowl sit for a month.

I will say that for all the bowls / platters / hollow forms I turn, I use the AST with a great deal of success.

See ya around,

Dominic

Re: Mixed results

Brad Vietje

>Dominick,

Another factor might be the density of some of the exotics -- I think they can take 2 to 3 times as long as our usual native hardwood fare to really dry and stabilize. I had a few Cocobolo hollow forms that I packed up to take to a gallery and forgot about for nearly 2 years -- I was surprised how much they had gone oval when they were re-discovered, since they seemed reasonably dry when I made them. I was able to re-mount them and true them up, but they're a little thinner and lighter now !

The pic shows the little fellers before they shrank (back when I still had a digital camera). Sorry, it's a pretty dark photo -- the two in front are the Cocobolo ones, while the odd-shaped one in back is Ziracote. The Ziracote one didn't distort much at all, though it is turned end-grain, while the others are side grain.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Re: Mixed results

Brad Vietje

>2 boxes from native wood that were roughed from green, local wood:

* A fussy one in Curly Silver Maple from a friend's firewood pile.

* A simpler one in Eastern Hophornbeam, a.k.a. Ironwood, from a local tree.

And one from some kiln dried Claro Walnut from California.

Box making from green wood can be done, but takes a while. I certainly don't recommend turning anything that needs precision out of green wood without drying it first.

Safe Spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Re: Mixed results

Brad Vietje

>Two more from back in the digital days :(

Black Cherry and Black Walnut. The interloper is African Blackwood with a chattered Corion 'knob'. Cherry was roughed green, then dried and finish turned, while the Walnut box was made from and air-dried 2-1/2" slab that was about 5 years old.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Re: Mixed results

Carole in VA

>Nice boxes, Brad. The piece I want to do is a block of green cherry. Guess I will rough turn it, soak and let it dry in a bag for much longer than I would a bowl, then let it sit in the house for a while without the bag. Hopefully, I can have something by Christmas! LOL I am not sure how well boxes with a "pop" fit will fare in my area anyway with the temperature and humidity changes. We get really, really humid in the summer and sometimes really dry in other seasons. Oh well, it's only wood. I'll just experiment!

Re: Boxes?

Barry Turner

>You can..........but the lids ain't gonna fit. That is unles you rough turn the blanks, then air dry for a year or so.