Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Joel Hunnicutt

>OK Ruth you just hit my hot button. I totally agree

within the context of selling work. Turning for the retail market and turning for praise from other turners is too different things. If you turn to sell work (as I do), your need to turn to please your market.

On the other hand, many people turn for the sheer enjoyment and selling is secondary, if at all. For

these folks the satisfactions comes from doing something very technically difficult very well.

Neither goal is wrong at all. The craft of turning is just meeting different needs for different people. The one goal that selling and non-selling turners should share is that we produce the best quality work that we possibly can.

Hope this didn't sound too preachy. I guess you can tell that I have this topic a lot of thought for awhile.

yes

tdaniel

>I find the same thing Ruth. I had a very thin bowl with good markings and color that sat in my showroom for 2 years before it sold. The lady that bought it knew that thinner was more difficult to produce and she was willing to pay for it but there were a very large number who had passed it by because it was too light. However, I have a bowl made from hard maple that is the same thickness as I make my poplar and soft maple bowls and everyone thinks it is too thick; actually it isn't too thick....it is too heavy. Heavier woods need to be a little thinner than lighter woods. As far as the size of the opening I agree totally.

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

John Lucas

>Ruth

It depends on the market. For the General public which is what most of us sell to You are absolutely right. For the high end market anything goes. I met a man who made what he called Potato chip platters. They were as thin as a potato chip. He didn't sell hardly any and they were truely georgeous.

On boxes I find that small boxes should be able to be picked up by the lid and not the bottom not fall off until the customer pulls it off. It should come off easily. Pop off lids only impress other turners. I'm talking little 2" and under boxes. For anything bigger I make the lid so it will come off without lifting the bottom with it. These seem to please the customer.

Thin hollow vessels sell for me better than thick. Thick bowls sell better than thin. May be just my market.

True !

Fred in NC

>The difference, in my opinion, is the price. Pure art commands a high price, but does not sell as fast as pretty but utilitarian pieces.

There are lots of buyers that are not art connoiseurs. When they look at a vase they are thinking of a decoration, possibly with a flower arrangement on it. They sure don't want it to tip over because of the weight of the flowers - and goodbye the $300 they paid for it !! You might as well leave the walls thick, or just drill a big hole down the center . . . They are looking at the outside, and how well it stay with the flowers in it.

Now, don't take me wrong about the art stuff. I majored in fine arts AND vocational industrial education. Worked in graphic arts over 25 yrs earlier in my life. I love ART !!!

I will be retiring in a couple months, and I expect to make some money with my turning. Much as a love art, right now I am thinking about what will SELL, and I don't mean craft and art shows only. Any kind of production turning where I can make some decent money will be welcome. Art will be for my spare time.

The though comes to my mind about Rude Osolnik's candlesticks. Beautiful simple shape, and highly functional. Reasonably priced. He sold a lot of them. Thin them out to about 1 oz each, and try to sell them as candlesticks !!!

Just my $2.19 worth of opinion.

DISCLAIMER: The worth of my opinion is indexed to the price of gas in my area.

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Ruth Niles

>Joel, I totally agree with you. The one thing I left out of my post was that I turn something either for fun or a technical challange between turning items to sell. I love to turn a bowl so thin that people ooh and aah.... and I keep that item until I turn a better one that impresses me!

Re: True !

Ruth Niles

>Fred, by your disclaimer, my opinion is worth $2.35 and that's a "regular" opinion!

Hey Fred, i like your disclaimer!

tdaniel

>

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Barry Irby

>Ruth,

I'm not a professional, but that's another whole issue. (Is it my fault the people visiting the gallery don't have the taste or money to buy my stuff, but I digress?)

About Pop lids, several turners I talked to tell me they don't use them on pieces that are going into shows because people pick the piece up by the top or finial and then the bottom falls off and even if the piece is not damaged, they are embarrassed and they set it down and walk away.

Another turner told me he makes walnut, cherry and poplar bowls ranging form about 24" down to abut 12". They gush over the big ones and marvel at the wood, but don't buy them because no one has a place for a 24" bowl. They OOH and AHH over the walnut but buy the cherry and then the poplar and the walnut sells last if at all. He takes the big bowls and walnut one with him to shows to attract attention to this booth.

The gallery I worked with insisted that I put an arrangement of dried flowers in the vessels just to demonstrate what they are for.

You have to find your market.

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Bill Grumbine (Kutztown PA)

>Hi Ruth

My point of view is that my paying customers are the final critics. It does me no good at all to impress other turners if the people who buy my stuff aren't impressed. Not too long ago, I had another turner in the shop (he reads here, so we'll see if he recognizes himself). I was showing him some of my natural edged burl bowls, and while looking at an elm bowl that is about 6" in diameter and 1/2" thick, he turned to me and asked,

"Why do you make them so thick? Can't you make them any thinner?"

I turned around and grabbed a maple burl bowl that is almost identical in size and form, but is closer to 1/16" thick.

"You mean like this one?"

"Oh."

I went on to explain that I turn them to look good thick or thin, and that with a lot of pieces, thick looks better. I turn thin so that other turners will know that I can do it. That is a little important to me, since other turners are now a large segment of my customer base. But the general public likes thicker bowls, and all my utility bowls are heavy walled.

I think that overall form is more important than thick or thin. If the form is not pleasing, then no one is going to like it. But think about other things we handle in life. Most of the time, we associate weight with quality, don't we? This is not true for everything, but for many things it is. Heavier usually means better. I could even reach back into ancient Hebrew, where one of the words for glory literally means to be heavy.

I could go on and on, but I think you can see that like Joel, I think about this a lot.

Bill

Good advice !

Fred in NC

>"You have to find your market."

Question ....

Fred in NC

>Imagine you are a possible buyer for a $200 vase, and you are at a show looking around. You are looking at a turner's display. The display has many beautiful but very expensive pieces in the $1000 range, thin walls and fragile. There are also some cheaper pieces in a corner, better suited for what you want, and they are in your price range.

Is there any possibility you will buy one of the cheaper pieces?

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

JL

>Disclaimer - this is my hobby, not my profession.

I have been turning for real for somewhat over a year. I got into turning because I wanted to make legs for chairs and tables. I got into bowls for fun.

Don't get me wrong - I like looking at turning "Art". However, I have a preference for "functional" pieces. Things that can take "abuse" or use.

My wife is a knitter who knits socks among other things. She was told that a pair she had knitted was "too pretty to wear" and that "they should be framed". She told the person that the socks were made for use, and that she would be offended if they weren't used.

I do count turning "Art" as a use. Hopefully one day I'll get to that stage.

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Jim King-Iquitos,Peru

>Ruth: I can say that usable turnings such as covered bowls, regular bowls etc. of our colored and figured woods outsell decorative or art peices 20 to 1 for us here in a tourist market. People seem to want a bit of weight and utility.

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Joel Hunnicutt

>Scary huh Bill!! :)

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Roger

>Ruth,

I think the question you raised here, holds true for many different art forms or "talents". It could be woodturning, painting, music,pottery, carpentry, or whatever. There's a certain amount of satisfaction that comes from someone willing to part with some of their money to obtain what you have produced, but to me some the greatest satisfaction could come from being recognized by those in your profession or talent. I would think it would feel mighty good to have some "Top Turners" or musicians or whatever come away from seeing some of your work, and have them say, "damn that was good".

Roger

Novice, non-seller here...

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Ruth,

This is a very interesting thread. I think that I had presumed that the difficult-to-make-looking turnings, which I find appealing, all sold for high prices at galleries, providing just rewards for the talented turners.

On the other hand, my practical wife has given me some looks when I explain that such-and-such a piece is really great because it is hard to make.

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Wally Dickerman in Az.

>I became fascinated with thin walled vessels many years ago after watching Del Stubbs turn some of his very thin pieces. I've been turning thin ever since. My gallery owners would be quite surprised if I brought in some vessels that didn't "feel" thin when picked up. Most of my vessels have small openings. They all sell, and one gallery owner told me that because my pieces were thin walled they sold for more money.

Have you ever seen the thin walled pieces by Frank Sudol, Binh Pho, Ellsworth, Paul Fennell and others? Their work all sells for prices in the thousands.

I very seldom turn a functional bowl. If I do, it isn't thin walled.

Wally

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

Mike Rubes, Apex, NC

>Hi Ruth,

Great conversation going here. I am by no means a professional turner. I've sold a few pieces, but mostly I just give away what I turn. Also, I've only been turning for about 3 years. However, in the ones I've sold, I've definitely noticed that the more utilitarian bowls are the first ones to go.

For me, I turn simply because it is fun and I enjoy the process. I like to push myself and try a small opening, thin walled vessel on occasion, but I find myself doing much more bowls for use.

In the thin versus thick debate, when I first started turning I was way over on the "thin is better" side. Since I've been turning, I've moved more to the thick side. To be honest, I find it more difficult to do a heavy walled bowl really well, than a thin walled bowl. Maybe it is just that my really thin stuff is also smaller while my thicker bowls tend to be larger? Getting a good feel in terms of weight distribution and a desired variance of thickness across the bowl to me is harder in a thick piece. Maybe it is also because my really thin bowls tend to be very uniform in thickness while with my thicker bowls I try to leave the rim a little thicker than the middle and then also leave a little weight in the bottom? That in and out curvature, overlayed on top of a nice pleasing form, can be quite difficult for me to achieve.

Neat conversation, I am enjoying everyone's responses.

Thanks,

Mike

I don't get NEAR enough time on the lathe in Apex, NC!!!

Re: Question ....

Jay in TX (formerly from Ohio)

>Fred,

That is the only way I've built my small collection! Its also about timing too. If you see a fellow craftsperson/artist who's work you like that hasn't caught on yet, then snap a piece up and get in on the bottom floor. Odds are if you like it everyone else will too, right?

Re: Turning to Sell or for Other Turners?

John Trant (Baltimore/DC area)

>Ruth,

I think your comments are entirely correct and that they are applicable to to most professions. The apprentice craftsmen of old were required to create a "masterpiece" to demonstrate their skills in order to be consider a master craftsman. Typically, these masterpieces were not meant to be profitable but merely demonstrative of a skill level. Once this level of skill was demonstrated to the guild, then they were deemed skilled enough to make a simple silver tray or paint the portrait of the ugly, rich merchant. Profitable exercises but hardly high art or taxing of their skills. It is the same with dissertaions in academia (our masterpiece but otherwise worthless) vs scientific publications (verification to my peers of my skills) vs articles for the educated public (the money!). As turners, we need to display those exquisite pieces (thin walled, carved, pierced, painted, and/or pyrographed) to demonstrate our skill to the discriminating customer. We need to verify that their salad bowl was crafted with skilled hands that are capable of much more difficult work. Otherwise, they would buy that salad bowl from Wal-Mart.

John

-lose the 2 for email-

Thanks everyone

Robert Cox

>This was/is an enlightening discussion.

Especially for someone who has managed a grand total of 1.3 bowls. (One I did, One Schwing taught me on)

Great discussion

Mike Schwing from Md.

>My late comments. I started turning because I wanted to posess the skill of turning. No other reason than I didn't know how and I wanted to learn. No other goals whatsoever.

Now I turn to impress myself, and if it happens to impress others, that is a pleasant bonus for me. I don't care how long an items takes, but rather the final outcome. You would not believe how long I can agonize over a finish or a surface defect. It should be noted that I do not turn for sale, but I do sell my turnings.

It has become very important for me to do something that is my own, and I don't really enjoy doing over and over things that 10,000 other turners are doing. That is probably obvious in my recent postings starting about a year back. I would be lying if I said I have not been guided/motivated by various responses to my "creations" so there is definitely an aspect of creating for others in my direction and my work.

I also very much enjoy helping other new turners get started, so I am considering accepting a teaching offer. This will keep me turning more "normal" items for practice and for teaching, which is a good thing for nice salad bowls and platters are a good steady source of play money.

Thanks for providing the opportunity for a little self introspection.

It's good news for me ;-)

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

>I don't call myself a turner, but sometimes I pretend to be one. If I'm not turning components for my furniture then I am mostly turning for fun. However I have a gallery show coming up, for my furniture. However I plan to include a few turned pieces, mostly for "accessories".

Not being terribly skilled most of my turned stuff is thick walled. I have turned some thin walled things too and I was surprised to have folks tell me they actually liked my thick walled stuff better. I thought that was odd but realized they liked the bowls to feel more substantial.

I still prefer thin walled things myself and hope to more once my skills improve. But for now it's kinda nice to know I don't have to feel sheepish for having some thicker walled things on display.

Tommy

Re: Question ....

Ruth Niles

>Fred, cheaper is good but I think the key to your question is the part about "better suited" to your needs or desires.