NWA showcase

Re: NWA showcase

Fred in NC

>Keith, anybody can buy a lathe and tools. Learning how to use them (technique) is the next step. Design is a separate issue, since a person who never turned anything could have this knowledge, possibly inherited from another craft such as pottery, or an art background. Some people seem to have been born with a good eye . . .

There are many aspects to a craft. I worked in graphic arts for many years. I had to learn how to use the tools before I could learn the art part, ie., design. That took a lot longer !!! I am glad nobody told me to let the paper talk . . .

Many times my mind has envisioned the cover for a book titled: "Woodturning in 10 Easy Lessons" with a subtitle, in very small letters: "And thousands of difficult ones."

Re: NWA showcase

John Lucas

>Keith

I seldom put a piece of wood on the lathe without some idea of what I'm going to make. I find it hard to turn bowls because I rough them out but then 6 month later I'm starting with a bowl and it's hard to just make a bowl. I need to make sketches as I rough out the bowl and keep them with that bowl. I just don't find it interesting to pick up a roughed out bowl and turn it. I have this need to have a plan. I find it much more exciting to design something and then figure out how I'm going to make it.

Our President and I will be doing a design demo in a few months. He's a retired architect. We realized that almost no one in the club knows the basics of design. I may have to start including that in my demos.

Re: NWA showcase

TomW In SouthJersey

>I guess I cheat a little since I still consider myself learning styles. I have been printing pictures of the forms I see posted here and on the AAW site for hollow forms, bowls, even bottle stoppers. I don't try to do an exact copy and usually try to combine features from different pieces that "fit" the wood I'm working with. So far, that works well for me. Usually I start with an idea for a form, find a similar form picture and go from there. Nothing is written or drawn.

Almost off topic.... I see several posts for demos that someone is either doing, has done or is hosting. I would find it very useful to see a section on this forum where they could all be posted for date and location. It would probably increase attendance and give some of us willing to take a ride to see some of these if there was a little advance notice.

Tom

Re: NWA showcase

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I think about my brief furniture making stint. At first I used sets of plans to make tried and true pieces of furniture. See something that catches your eye? Buy the plans. Then, when my joinery and cutting skills were up to the task, I tried my hand at my own plans. WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED? Why does it look all wrong? Quick, painful, time consuming lesson in why form is so important.

Now what happens when one turns a bowl with no nod to form/design? I guess that depends, but more often than not a handmade wooden bowl is rare enough that you can get away with poor form. People are excited about it simply because it exists. What do you mean my form is lousy? People love my work, will be the response from a turner when you suggest how they might improve the form. "I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder?" might be another.

Where does one go to learn form? A turning club? Doubtful. Most turners are just like most turners - blisfully unaware of design principles. A book? Few and far between. Websites? Most turning websites do nothing other than offer "congrats, cool bowl! Nice finish!". Even if you ask for critique - many people will simply respond that they like the work - who does that help? (see recent examples). You gotta really ask for form help to get it. I find I get many more responses if I critique my own work first. I also find it helpful to print out pictures of work who's form I believe to be good and try to emulate it.

I approach every blank with an idea in mind. I don't sketch out bowl designs but I do decide what shape to make before starting. I find it imperative to draw out scale versions of carvings before starting.

Keith - I have an idea. Lets find some photos of work where the woodworker is unidentifiable and use them as examples for critique. It'll help both with form as well as "how to critique".

Re: NWA showcase

Ruth Niles

>Keith,

Do you think it might be that the majority of turners are retired folk or hobby turners and just want to have fun turning "something"? I wonder, of those you surveyed or all turners, how many have any background in art of any form or engineering training.

Those turners, like yourself, who become famous have had some sort of art training; taken pottery classes, studied art, commercial art, taken many seminars/classes with famous turners, etc. I think most people (turners like myself) weren't trained to think artistic or to follow a plan, just to "turn like this". Personally, I'd love to see a lot more demos for design and planning the finished shape. I know I want to turn a bowl, box, top, whatever, and have tried to sketch or plan, I just seem to veer because of grain, impatience(?) or some such thing. Maybe I (and others guilty of not planning) don't have the mental self-discipline or too anxious to just turn something pretty? I don't know.

Not having any art training is what led me to reproduction turning for my living because I knew I'd never make it as an "artist" with originality; I copy bowl/hollow forms (not "copy" copy but try to emulate....whew, almost got myself in trouble!). : )

Ruth

Re: NWA showcase

Brian McKearney

>I'd venture a guess that part of the reason that woodturners don't draw up plans and think a lot about desing prior to making a piece is in part due to the nature of woodturning - pieces are generally finished (start to end) in a very short period of time, and materials often don't cost much (firewood/logs are viewed as cheap).

I've built lots of furniture, and when I approach a new piece, I typically agonize over what it is that I'm going to build and usually draw up some kind of plans so that I can convey my ideas to my wife (who is usually the recipient of such pieces). I do this for a few reasons: (a) such a piece will usually occupy a good amount of floor space in a room, and therefore we all have to be happy with it when it's done, (b) such pieces typically involve a good amount of lumber, and that's not cheap (could add up to several hundred dollars for wood and other materials), and (c) these projects are not usually quick for me - a large piece could take a good portion of the winter since I have a day job and I don't want to waste my time if the piece won't be useful/enjoyable in the end.

When I typically approach a piece on the lathe, such as a bowl, (a) I'm usually starting with a log that I got for free, (b) I'm far less likely to spend a great deal of time making it (possibly a day - maybe a couple of days if you add it all up from roughing, final turning and finishing), and (c) if it doesn't come out great in the end, well at least I enjoyed turning it and someone will likely make use of it regardless, since turned items are as others have stated relatively rare. If it doesn't come out well in the end, then what started as firewood can just as easily end as firewood - nothing lost and at least I gained another afternoon at the lathe. This process is likely far different if one has a definite purpose for the piece that is being turned, but that's not often for myself, as turning is a hobby for me and most pieces are for personal use or gifts.

Given these differences, I think that this kind of steers woodturners down the road of "let the wood speak to me".

Brian

Re: NWA showcase

Bob Hackett

>I think that if someone is interested in design they will take it upon themselves to study it or at least ask questions of those who seem to understand it.

I agree that most programs that teach turning focus on technique and teach design as an afterthought if they teach it at all.I have never been able to understand this aproach,all it amounts to is teaching how to make bad(or less than successful)forms more quickly.

As far as "letting the wood speak" goes,I never really get tied into anything when I put a piece on the lathe.I deal with mostly highly figured wood(burls,stumps,crotches,spalted wood,etc)and these usually contain at least one defect that makes itself known as I rough the blank.Once I`ve turned away everything I either can`t or don`t want to deal with(or make a design feature)I then consider the best use of the remaining wood.The end result is a result of an evolving process,what began with the idea " deep bowl" may end up as "platter" after I hit that pocket of rot or imbedded stone.

The few times I have approached the lathe with a set idea it was after turning some test pieces and then carefully chosing a blank.I find I don`t enjoy this type of work as much as just wingin` it,with good design always kept in mind.

The one thing I do try and hold to is that highly figured wood works best in a simple form.What I have learned is that the more simple you make something the harder it is to nail it,the form and proportion has to be right.

I save the embellishments and tricks for the plain(for me) wood that needs to be augmented in order to hold interest.Proven woods such as mahogany and plain grained cherry or maple that will take texture and detail well are what I look for then.

One of the best books on design,and one I keep returning to,is Raffan`s "Turned Bowl Design".I can`t understand why it was just drooped from print instead of being updated.

Darlow`s book on design is good if a bit of a wade.

Hogbin`s "Appearance and Reality"(available thru the Turning Center in Philly)is like the Machinery Handbook of design.Alot of useable info in one place.

Pye`s books are good too.

Mainely,Bob

PS-I loaned both Raffan`s and Hogbin`s books to a new turner who has a degree in fine art,after several months he returned them saying he never really gave them much more than a glance as he felt they would "Limit what I`m attempting to reach for".When he asked me for a critique of his work I was told I didn`t understand his concepts.This from a person who thinks one must turn ONLY kiln dried lumber.

Re: NWA showcase

RevDoug

>Kiln dried is nice, but where's the magic of the natural warp?

It's the warp that I enjoy as it is a natural enhancement to the work I've done with the wood. Sure, I look at the blank, study it, try to imagine what is there and what I can do to bring about the best looking piece I can. I keep the "Golden Mean/Triangle" in mind and attempt to achieve those dimensions.

The real challenge seems to be keeping the characteristics of the wood in mind. What is it it going to do as I take this portion of wood away? Where are the "warp points?" I wonder how far this edge is going to move on me? Those are the questions I find harder to answer.

Draw it out? No way. I have absolutely no ability to draw. But, I sure can see the piece I'm going after as that chunck of fire wood spins round and round.

Plan what I want to do? Absolutely. Sure, there are times when the wood changes the design on me; a bad move with the tool of the moment, a week spot in the wood that lets go, a void or rotten area. All these "defects" offer "design opportunities." In that case I'll roll with the punches as they say. My thought out design changes. But, I still have a design in mind.

Mike - The few pieces I've asked for critique on is because I often know there is an issue in the design but can't put my finger on. It is a rare instance when someone will let me know where it is that I made the mistake, even when I ask what in the world is wrong with this piece. Of course I don't use those words. Maybe that would gain me the information I am looking for.

Keith, thanks for starting a thinking thread. Now I just need to go to the lathe and let the wood talk to me while I let my brain cool off. :)

Re: NWA showcase

Ed in No.VA

>This is a really great discussion. Is there any way to pull this over into a chat or at least keep it going.

I am a relatively new turner of only one year. I started just to try it and now want to do it fulltime. I have used design principals in flat work previously and can also see some parallel approach in software design.

Commissioned work brings the same responsability to design within given parameters as any one who has worked as a consultant in about any field can recognize.

Letting the wood determine design will work only if the artist can use good design principles within an iterative process.

Re: NWA showcase

ruth So. Cal

>'Form follows function'.....I figure out from the size of the wood what I want to turn...is it a small salad bowl, or is it a small curio bowl, is it a large salad bowl or is it a fruit bowl.....then I sort of let the wood speak..- it works for me....

I am not interested in design from the point of thinking, drawing, having the bowl follow a predetermined design set. I am just interested in turning something nice. Then again, I'm not interested in critiques of my work either, I'm just having fun with an expensive hobby.

However, I would imagine that all of this would change if I ever decided to actually 'get serious' and get my work out there. ANd I think it would change because I would want to have some way of my work being known as mine...design, size, form, funstion...

Re: NWA showcase

Mike Schwing from Md.

>Ruth, you bring up an extremely good point. Most turners simply do not desire such things in their work. It is a fun hobby, a nice way to spend a few hours, an interesting diversion, and it keeps one out of the bars. If not interested in the fine art aspect, gallery sales, or juried shows, the impetus to get serious about design/form/critique just may not be there. Not a thing in the world wrong with that!

I think it is a common failing, and one I will freely admit to, for persons who are interested in that other aspect to assume all others are as well.

Re: NWA showcase

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>As others have said, Keith, good subject/thread.

I think where many people get hung up is, when we say planning or designing, the natural assumption is that we have to set down and draw it out, pull out the calipers and measure, etc.

That is not it at all!!! It means, put at least a little thought into what you can get out of a piece of wood (or pieces), before you start hacking away at it. Every piece of wood should speak to you before you put it on the lathe, it should say "Pick me, I am right for what you are planning", or "Don't pick me, I will not be right for your work". It should never have to say - "Stop!! You are turning a beautiful piece of wood into an ugly shape." Beyond that, it is execution (flatspots in a curve, etc)

Even the person that says, I just want to have fun on the lathe should produce decent looking bowls. If all you want to do is have fun, get some green wood, and turn until there is nothing left. However if you are going to produce something at the end, only a little planning will make it a nice looking something. When I was in the Army, I worked at one place where I got off work at 11pm. We had a bowling league that started at 1am and went until about 4am. Now I am no bowler, but I enjoyed the fun with my co-workers - I was in it for the fun, but I did not just roll the ball down the lane not caring where it went. I was not going to work to be a 300 bowler, but neither did I want to have a gutter ball everytime.

None of us went from the womb to the lathe. We all have some experience in the world (some of us more than others). We all should be able to honestly say, that shape is nice or it is ugly. You do not have to know good shape or the Golden Mean/Rectangle, but you should be able to copy/emulate a good shape.

#1 problem with most woodturners is: How big a bowl can I make out of this piece of wood. then we end up with deep straight sided bowls that Mom puts on the living room table and fills with nuts/candy. When I mention this problem in demos, I either see knowing smiles come on the faces of experienced good turners, or see a light bulb come on over the heads of most of the turners (there are always some that don't get it then, but maybe some day it will). I realize not everyone want to produce gallery level work, but why not let Mom a nice looking shape to put on the table.

Segmented turners are the worst!!! Most of us worry about the colors, geometric designs and joints and then after all that work make some of the most "Butt Ugly" shapes out there. And what is bad is: Of all wooodturners, we are the only ones that get to create our medium - we can make whatever shape we want buy just cutting the segments differently.

Having a plan/design, does not mean it can be modified once you see a problem or an opportunity, like Bob said, you my start out doing a deep bowl and end up with a shallow bowl/Platter. Many times I adjust a plan (and mine are pages long) because what is coming out on the lathe either is not working in life, or I see an opportunity to make it better that I did not think of when I designed it.

When I do my segmented bowls, 90% of the time, I say - well here, I am going to have a feature ring, but I do not have the exact design or colors planned until I see the bowl to that point. Then sometimes the bowl sets for weeks until I know what would look good on that particular bowl (waiting for it to speak to me).

Critiques - Lets all make a vow, to be honest with each other. However, that means being kind too. If you have a scathing critique - be kind enough to email it to them. Wally Dickermann and Bill Grumbine were kind enough to do that to me when I first was on Badger Pond and I like to think that it helped.

Oh well, Off my soapbox.

Mark

Re: NWA showcase

ruth So. Cal

>Mark, I don't agree with some of the key points you make. I mentioned in my post that I am not interested in design, I am just turning to have fun. Yet you seem to think this is a bad thing and that if that's all I want to do I should just turn green wood away to nothing.

Why?

Same too with your suggestion that it's not enough to make Mom a nice bowl, that you think it should be more than that.

Why?

I think it is up to us as individuals to make what we want, from what wood we want and in whatever shape we want. If we enter a show, or attempt to get work in a gallery, we will find out quick enough whether or not our work is acceptable - and then not always as in Molly's posts of last week.

We are all individuals with individual likes and preferances. We may not like each other's shape or design, but that doesn't make the particular piece good or bad....it is just what it is. If the recipeint of the piece is thrilled with it, does it matter?

Your example of bowling doesn't actually work in this instance because you are talking about a competion where skill needs to be at a particular level.....there is a measure of success. In turning, the measure of success is up to the individual.

I guess more importantly though your email sort of hints at there being some kind of turning police....some nebulous group who decide what a turning should be, when it is acceptable and when it isn't. Again, if one is not doing the show/gallery grind who gives a darn. If you saw my work and didn't like the design, I wouldn't care....the gift turning has given me is endless pleasure, a good deal of frustration, and a whole new set of incredibly generous strangers! We don't know each other from a hole in the wall, but we lend verbal support, we share wood, we share stories and generally have a good time on WC.

Ruth

The point of a critique

Bob Hackett

>A good,well conducted critique should get you thinking and questioning.

It should be aimed at helping you to improve in at least one area.

It should motivate you and make you want to get back to the lathe to try some of the things you heard.

It can lead you in a direction you hadn`t even considered before the critique.

It should also start and end on a positive note.

They should be open and honest with an eye toward growth and discussion.

Critiques are not for everyone and they should never be given unless asked.

When given they should be given under the understanding that they are just opinions and/or advice from the person doing the critique.

One of the best people to give a critique(or get advice about giving a critique)I`ve ever met is Jacques Vesery.I`ve never seen him do one and not have the person walk away feeling glad they asked for his input.

Mainely,Bob

Re: NWA showcase

bill Crommett in seneca

>And what does one do when the wood is smarter than he is ?

Re: NWA showcase

Keith Tompkins

>Wow, thanks for all the responses....I thought about the post I made, and almost went back and deleted it. I anticipated a few angry responses, but I'm glad not to see any.

After my demos, I had a two-hour drive...I discussed how the talks went with my wife, who critiques my talk. Did the demo progress well, did it flow in a cohesive manner, did it hold the audience's interest? What went well, what needs improving. Did the demo accomplish what it was intended to do?

I had a lot of time to think about how people reacted to my design ideas. Several people told me afterwards that they struggle with their pieces, and don't quite know why their work just doesn't look right: they are frustrated by their lack of progress. They had never considered some of the things I had touched on, but now would.

That was the reason for the post.....thanks to you all!

Re: NWA showcase

Keith Tompkins

>JOhn,That sounds like a great demo....getting some design concepts from an architect's view is an excellent idea....I think you'll find that the design elements fit right into the talk, and will create a lot of positive feedback.

Re: NWA showcase

Keith Tompkins

>Good idea Mike....for next year's totally turning symposium, I'm turning some really poor forms, and then fixing them during the demo....and explaining the difference, then I'll show the before and after pieces.

I think WC can be a great place to learn!

Re: NWA showcase

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Ruth!

Many of the turners that I know are retired professionals, well educated, successful people. Although they are not trained in design, most are "success" oriented, high-achievement types. All protests aside, most want to produce high quality items....this may help explain why Oneway sales are so high.

I am very fortunate: I come from an artistic family; my grandfather was a master cabinet maker, there are several artists in the family. My daughter, another artist type, is in art school. I spent several years building and designing furniture professionally, including windsor-style chairs. When the turning bug hit me, I had a huge amount of experience to draw upon...I realize most turners do not. I think it is important to share some of the things I have learned.

You can see why it's hard for me to understand the hit-or-miss approach many take in their turning hobby. It seems many turners spend years trying develop their skills the hard way.

I don't consider myself "famous" in the least. I have worked hard for some name recognition, which I consider essential to any kind of success as a turner. I am grateful that my work is being appreciated; yet I am fully aware that there are far better turners in the world than I who are not receiving the recognition they deserve.

I am lucky indeed to have a second chance at a woodworking career.

Re: NWA showcase

Ruth in S. Cal

>I certainly can understand why someone with your background would lean to what I would call the more technical aspects of turning. Makes total sense to me. I thought you had posted an interesting question, and my original post was in response to your request. What I took issue with was Mark's comments. They seemed to me to put down those of us who have no interest, for whatever reason,in pursuing turning as an art form, he suggested even to just turn green wood to nothing...implying in my mind that wood is wasted by us......

I too am an over educated professional, and immersed in detailed planning and response in my day to day work. When I get home the jeans and t-shirt go on and I am usually doing something about turning even if I am not at the lathe. I don't want to be involved in the finer points of sketch designs and planning what I am going to turn....I just want to enjoy what I am doing....if I can sell a few pens and bottle stoppers as I go along, that's great.

Since I also work every day I don't have the luxury of spending hours at the lathe each week. If I can turn a couple of hours during the weekeday evenings, and maybe four hours total at the weekend I feel like I have hit pay dirt.

Perhaps it's this lack of time that prevents me 'learning' the other side of it. Get back to me when I retire and ask me the question again!

It was/is a good thread and I am sure there are lots of others who will want to add.......

Re: NWA showcase

Russ Fairfield

>Keith,

Welcome to the topic of design, the academic side of woodturning that is too often neglected. You can read my thoughts on the topic in Russ's Corner in the Desigh article. I wrote that in '97, so I am not new to this topic.

I am convinced that it is all about "prestige". The "Lords Of Woodturning" have ignored the topic because they want us to believe that that they have discovered a "secret" that is beyond the grasp of the common folk. There is power in having knowledge that nobody else has access to. They understand the language of the wood, it speaks to them. That is something that can't be done by the common woodturner. Heaven forbid that design can be reduced to a few simple formulas that are withing the grasp of the masses.

The hard part...

Bob Hackett

>Is transfering all that flat math in the 18th century drawings on to the round wood.

A guy could go crosseyed if he`s not careful.

Better to let the wood do the talking.;^)

Mainely,Bob

Re: NWA showcase

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Ruth, the main thing is enjoying your time at the lathe! I wish I could have your attitude. I am a competitive type A sort, I guess. Sometimes, that takes the fun out of it.

When people tell me I need to watch my blood pressure, I just laugh....I bet I can get mine higher than yours!

Re: NWA showcase

Keith Tompkins

>Thanks Russ, and amen! NOW I know where it all started!