A curious comparison of knives and plane blades

Making a decent knife without having to really make it "well" across the board

(before I forget the subject line, I mean by it that I or anyone else who wants to learn basic grinding and heat treatment can make a really good knife without the obligation of the upper end customs where there's a huge emphasis on aesthetics and an enormous amount of hand sanding and finishing so that a custom knife doesn't wilt under keyboard jockey criticism when photographed up close. I'm essentially making utility knives because I can't point to something like I'm making for cheap. No interest really in selling knives, so no great interest in really time consuming hand finishing (hand sanding) of the blade beyond about 10 minutes of truing things up and then leaving them as they are) 

I don't know why there doesn't seem to be a middle market of good quality very usable knives for people who actually use them. I'd bet 150 years ago, most knives were in the middle market. 

I don't bother to try to chase what's typically followed on the knife pages - really going bonkers on the blade surface finish, above and beyond blade geometry. Ultimately, if you pay enough, you can get both, but I don't know where that is in cost - maybe $350-$500 for something like a good kitchen knife that is too hard to be steeled and doesn't have some obvious grind that isn't completely driven by the quality in use. 

But it allows someone like me to make knives that have some appreciable quality in use - one that's noticeable, without having to sit around hand sanding each knife for half a day. 

https://i.imgur.com/fiKz34w.jpg

The low end of the market is almost certainly data driven (low being any chef's knife that's like henckels or wustoff that needs to be tough because it will be used by anyone, and then all the way down to thin stamped knives that are really soft). 

It's definitely the case that geometry and hardness above steeling range mean a lot when it comes to using a knife that is intended for slicing or pushing through things that might deform an edge. 

I'm still cutting my teeth on learning what really makes a good knife, though. The thin ones are excellent slicers, but they can really get vacuumed to something like a cabbage head and then when they release, be a little dangerous. It's not that I think divvying up two kitchen knives is a big deal - one with a fatter bevel and chubbier grind for things like cabbage, potatoes and watermelons, and another for meat and smaller vegetables, but maybe the average individual would find it confusing. it's sort of like the difference between an axe used to split and one used for felling. the overall market ends up with something that fits between those rather than one of each. 

(one parallel to plane irons, though - hardness of the steel matters a lot to get into a sweet spot where an experienced user would find things ideal. but knives will sell in volume based on alloy and lower spec heat treating because you can point to a chart - would a soft 10V knife outlast a 62 hardness AEB-L knife? Not in any situation other than being used as a chisel plow in dirt, but you can look at the chart and the chart says 10V lasts a lot longer. The chance of heavy use is far less than the chance of pondering and comparing the collection to the wear chart). 

Re: Making a decent knife without having to really make it "well" across the board

My wife is the poster girl for Wustoff. Even these are too good for her. They get tossed in the dishwasher and the heat loosens the scales. Worst of all, the edge cannot survive for long as she chops or cuts on granite or plastic boards. She would destroy even 10V!

She is an enthusiastic and creative cook, and loves preparing meals. Her favourite knife is a small 165mm Japanese santuko, which she marvels at the balance and that the edge remains razor sharp forever. I don’t think that she is aware that I frequently hone it on a 600 grit diamond disk and clean and dry it before it rusts. 

I swear by those cheap diamond lapidary disks available on eBay. Tuck one away on a shelf or in a drawer, where it takes up no space at all. 

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Making a decent knife without having to really make it "well" across the board

When there are vg10 rikizai knives that can be had in the right shape from someone who doesn't punish gaijin with a big markup,  they're essentially in the range of knives I'm making.  When you get into American or euro patterns,  it can be difficult to find anything,  though.  I have 3 rikizai knives, and all are good, but vg10 trades sone chip resistance and grain size to be easy industrially. Aeb-l needs a faster quench and it needs a cold finish and accurate tempering. I guess it's harder to use industrially,  but it's wonderful for a guy who heat treats like I do. For comparison,  vg 10 has toughness of 6 foot pounds at 61 hardness and aeb-l has 30. 

The poor toughness of vg10 isn't that meaningful in a clad knife, though.  

I hear you on the wusthof...it's made of a mid carbon stainless and soft, but the patterns are nice. The softness makes it really easy to steel.  I had some wusthof parers, but I think the kids have scraped all of them into the trash emptying plates. 

Granite will kill anything,  but plastic should be relatively harmless except for heavy handed side scraping. The knives in my picture will cut into it and stick a little,  though. Too, mine are dishwasher safe when handled with Micarta,  but Micarta can end up costing more than the steel bar stock (!).

Disposals

My wife is famous for sending knives into the disposal. My Wusthof parer is a favorite for that trip. One knife blogger suggested shaving western knives thinner for better utility, but a hammer can persuade a butcher knife through a winter squash. Which can be tricky and turn one into a psuedo-cleaver. 

that s sneaky

"I don’t think that she is aware that I frequently hone it on a 600 grit diamond disk and clean and dry it before it rusts. "  

Actual steel tests..

one of the other things I noticed on the knife board, as I may have mentioned, is that people will buy knives based on the name of the steel used, but a lot of them spec a fairly low hardness in production negating the use of the alloy in the first place. and then fail to hit the target that they set on a regular basis. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OepNr_D4lqbdTFqdqWl1rmAd4bOzPzJe6J0iEWrdJGU/edit#gid=0

Someone did this group of tests of knife brands (i'm not a knife guy, so I don't have much thought on brands here other than I can recognize a few). Missed hardness targets are highly correlated to brand, and not always based on cost. Notice how rare exceeding the hardness target is, and as you go down the sheet, it's often a result of using a cheaper steel in place of an expensive one - usually on made up name brands of imported chinese knives. 

Not a single AEB-L knife.

On the knife forum, it was common to show the knife of the day, next to a glass of wine or cigar or whatever. most of the times the knives were unmarked, so it probably doesn't matter if they're soft. 

When I gave an in person discussion on sharpening with a buffer earlier this year, someone came up to me after the class and mentioned that he bought a relatively expensive factory knife (benchmade) so that he could dress a deer with a sharp knife through and through. But that it dulls very quickly, and he was unhappy. He described what happened, which was obviously an edge rolling or deflection problem (too soft) and the knife that he showed me had no nicks. 

there is no shortage of highly wear resistant steels on the page above with tested hardness from 55-58. that combination makes no sense. there may be wear resistant carbides, but they can't stay in place because the matrix isn't hard enough to hold them still at the edge. 

(I think AEB-L would make a nice marking knife for people who can't keep tools from rusting - but it's probably a poor choice for commercial heat treating. that too was a big problem on the knife forum. I got kicked off for refusing to say that heat treating in a forge was a bad idea, but the number of posts reporting hardness way off target or cracked straightened knives was really high. and from some of the more reputable services, not just the fly by night types. the virtue of AEB-L in a marking knife is that the edge could be reasonably hard but also fine without cracking easily).