Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Questions about bows
Steve D, in CT
What makes a bow desirable to the musician?
I'm curious if bows affect the sound or if it's based on the feel of the bow. Whatever vibration that exists in the bow is not amplified the way it is in the soundboard.
PBS is starting an episode of Craft In America with a bowmaker. I'll see what she has to say.
Re: Curve shape
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
I had thought it would follow the curvature for a loaded ....maybe a center loaded beam. I'll keep looking for where I filed the information.
The curve had a name that was unmemorable.
Too late on the oil. It has a bit of color on the maple but the walnut is a lot nicer. Hopefully is soaks in deeper before it gets wrapped.
Hair dryer is the solution.
It is neither
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
As I recall the differential equation was not solved until late 1800's. I'll keep looking.
Re: nit picking
Steve D, CT
It may be the same equations that describe a bending beam.
Once the beam bends, yes.
The Euler equations are used to predict the critical load to induce buckling. They don't predict the buckled shape which may have one or more curves in failure.
Re: nit picking - maybe a sine curve...
Bruce McCrory
I used to design and select balsa spars for duration indoor rubber powered model planes using this combination of beam stress testing. At the level of design--models under one gram--fatigue became a critical factor of the constructions. Wings in flight might take on the catenary profile toward the end. For comparison, a dollar bill (even $50) is about one gram.
I don't think Steve needs to worry about deformation in his cutting board.
To be safe...
Steve D, CT I don't think Steve needs to worry about deformation in his cutting board.
a dollar bill (even $50) is about one gram.
To be safe, send me as many $50 bills as possible so I can test the board for safety.
Re: Questions about bows
John Aniano in central NJ
Hi Steve,
Wow, yours is a broad question! Nearly every aspect about a bow can be desirable (or not) to musicians. Weight, balance, strength, responsiveness and yes, very much so, the bow's sound. The intrinsic strength and density of the bow's stick, usually made from pernambuco, can have a bright or a dark sound to the player, and they often choose the sound to match or complement their instrument.
Different wood species have different tonal characteristics. Pernambuco can range from dark to bright sounding. Woods other than pernambuco have different flexibility so bouncing strokes are different. The shape of the actual bow's inward curve, it's camber, is like its personality and is strongly tied to its thicknessing along its length, called its graduations.
The height of the head and frog on the bow dictates how much camber the bow can have, so this also affects the way a bow performs. The angle of the head with respect to the stick is another factor and a steep angle can yield a "race car" type of bow, but that is usually not what players expect. Players often expect what they are used to, and this is often what their teacher(s) recommended, but not always. Radically different shaped bows or bows of alternative materials are not as acceptable as the traditional pernambuco.
So, a ton of things to think about!
John
Re: Questions about bows
Steve D, in CT
Thanks, the show was interesting. The bow maker highlighted was Susan Lipkins in NY state.
This is her website:
https://violoncello.com/susan-lipkins-bowmaker/
So....
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
In a Steinway presentation it was said they knew what they made a while after it was made. Ditto for a Madolin maker that has a shop nearby. A flute player friend said she tested a dozen ends that are blow in (probably has a name) and selected the one she preferred. If a silver tube can't be made with repetitive precision, how predictable is bow making?
Re: So....
Steve D, in CT
In the same episode of CiA there was a maker of Cajun accordians who touched on that. He said once in a while there was one that would be clearly superior to the others and he couldn't explain it. Beside the variation in wood, leather, and cane there are also a lot of hand operations and hundreds of pieces that combine in different ways.
Re: So....
John Aniano in central NJ
Hi Bill,
Predictably in bowmaking isn't always the aim, at least not for me. I do sometimes make a bow with a specific player in mind, in fact I'm doing that right now with a talented violinist. I can measure the balance of a bow, it's weight, it's strength, all its dimensions and shapes, examine the type and grain pattern of the wood, but in the end, you have to aim high when you make a copy. The player knows this from the start, but you strive to meet their needs. Often this means making a bow that is better than the bow they currently use, one that performs more effortlessly, draws a more even tone end to end, performs off the string strokes easier, is brighter or darker sounding than their current bow, that sort of thing.
I tend to make a bow with my own personal models that I know work using the wood that I have on hand, with dimensions and graduation patterns that I know will work. I use methods and other techniques I've been taught or learned from other makers and most importantly, include the feedback I've gotten over the years from musicians, all internalized and made my own by how I've absorbed those methods, feedback and opinions. Straight copying isn't all that much fun; being inspired to make something beautiful and that works well is much more enjoyable and interesting. For me, trying to make something a little bit different and out of the ordinary but that is accepted by musicians who will make music with my creations, is even more fun.
Lastly, a violin or bow of this caliber is made by hand, not by a machine. Every piece of wood is different. Yes, you use a lathe to make the button, a bandsaw to cut stock to close dimensions, a drill press or milling machine to rough out pieces, but all the tiny bits and pieces are assembled and fitted by hand using knives, chisels, planes and files. Some makers use more machine tools than I do, some even less. Making things exactly the same is boring, at least to me, so I vary things, within reason, when I can. Keeps things interesting!
John
Re: So....
Steve D, in CT
That sounds really interesting. I assume you play and can judge a bow before bringing in a customer to evaluate it.
My wife is from Wharton, NJ. Are you near there? I think that may be considered North Jersey - it's just north of Rt. 80 where it crosses 15.
Oh my!
Steve D, in CT
I found your website. Absolutely gorgeous work.
John Aniano’s professional website
Wiley Horne
For anyone who has not seen the stunning work of our amazing John Aniano:
Wiley
Re: John Aniano’s professional website
John Aniano in central NJ
Wiley, et. al.,
Thanks for the kind words, but really! It's just careful work. Sometimes inspired, but only if I get lucky!
My background in engineering and material science often gets in the way of just making as many bows as possible. Lots of bows under ones belt leads to improved muscle memory and being consistent. There are modern makers with over 1200 bows made over their careers. Even though I began to make bows around 1978, I took an engineering hiatus for nearly 20 years, so other makers have the edge on quantity of bows produced.
John
question
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
I enjoyed studying the beautiful bows. How is the hair fastened? Is it really horse hair?
A soloist at the Pitt Symphony sawed through their bow. Without missing a beat the concert master exchanged bows and the performance went on. It was better than Monday night football handoff. I enthusiastically applauded the hand off.
Re: question - horsehair in violin bows... *LINK*
John Aniano in central NJ
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the kind words! Yes, it is really horsehair. And it's quite expensive with the best quality going for around $650/lb.
A picture is worth a thousand words, so I've attached a link below from an image I found showing how the parts of a bow are put together. The hair ends are tied up with F-weight nylon thread (about 12+ turns typically) and powdered rosin is melted into the knot to hold the individual hairs. Some folks use CA glue on the knot and this works well too. The rosin method is traditional.
The hair amount is measured by a cross-sectional area gauge. Violin bows get about 6.5 square mm of hair as measured on the thicker end of the bundle (closest to the horse). The thinner end of the hair bundle goes in the tip of the bow, the thicker at the frog end. Viola, cello and bass bows get increasing amounts up to 17 square mm for bass. Older style baroque and classical bows use less hair than modern bows. Too much hair installed in a bow will make it less responsive, adds weight and will shift the balance. More is not better. I use the gauge to be consistent.
The knotted ends of the hair are held in specially shaped mortises in the head and frog. There is an undercut at the opposite end of each mortise so the hair can't easily pull out. The knot is held in place with a form fitted maple or beech wood plug that touches only the ends of the mortise, not the sides. If the sides of a bow head are forced, they can break easily because of the wood grain. The holding pressure of the plug is only from front to back, not sideways.
In Europe, bows are generally rehaired from frog to tip. I was taught by my employer at the time (1982) to rehair from tip to frog. The final result is the same - an even ribbon of horsehair without any crossed hairs. I use a metal flea comb to comb out the hair.
Re: question - horsehair in violin bows...
Wiley Horne
Who knew how much complexity lurked within these small parts??!!
It looks like one key thing is that the screw must not move once the player has set it. Otherwise the hair loses tension—is this correct? If so, what keeps the screw from backing up a little in the middle of the concerto?
Wiley
Frogs
Steve D, in CT
Interesting that the frog of a bow is similar in function to the frog of a plane. I wonder what other objects use that term to describe an adjustable block that anchors the functional part of the implement. In these cases it's the horse hair or the blade.
I'm thinking it was a common term in old trades or something that Bailey borrowed from an industry that he sold into. Probably not bow making since his planes are large for that.
Thanks...fascinating
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
I think I could build a 7 drawer chest of drawers quicker than a bow.
Re: question - horsehair in violin bows...
Mike In Los Angeles
Thanks for explaining all this. Do you know what was used to tie the horsehair before the nylon thread was introduced and when the shift was? I read nylon came into classical guitar in the war years, when gut was all allocated to sutures.
Re: question - horsehair in violin bows...
John Aniano in central NJ
Hi Wiley,
Yes, the screw shouldn't shift during use, and 99% of the time it won't. The 1% of the time the screw shifts is usually caused by it pulling out of the button since, in many cases it's a squared off screw shank in a round hole in the ebony core of the button. Thus, a friction fit. Conversely, on many bows, even very old ones, the screw is threaded and glued into the button core so the screw can't shift. In rare cases it's even peined on the end in some early examples.
When the screw gets loose from the button it's usually due to the inner bushing hole being too deep, so the end of the screw has nothing to bear up against. It's very common in inexpensive bows having this hole too deep so it's a common repair I wind up doing having to fill this to the proper depth.
The more common change in hair length is due to changes in humidity. Horsehair (and really any hair) elongates with increasing humidity. Before electronic humidity sensors, thin blond human hair was often used to measure humidity. I once had a Bendix brand recording temperature and humidity monitor and it used a thin hair to measure humidity.
But a quick tightening or loosening of the button sets the proper hair tension that a player wishes.
John
Re: John Aniano’s professional website
eliot feldman
Yes, fabulous! And in one of his posts ( I can't seem to find it now) he mentions the Euler equations originally developed to study columns under end stress. He apparently uses these equations to mathematically model certain aspects of his bow designs. I was a bit blown away! I happen to know something about such equations. Not these equations, but similar stuff related to the vibration of prismatic bars.(I was trying to understand the vibration of such bars because I was interested in mechanical impedance matching to "drain" the vibration from my stereo equipment.) We're talking heavy duty applied mathematics here. And he's right on our stage --as Ed Sullivan used to say!
Re: question - horsehair in violin bows...
John Aniano in central NJ
Hi Mike,
I and many others use nylon thread, but I've used other materials as well, such as polyamide, silk and cotton thread. I just prefer three-ply nylon beading cord now, that's all.
I really don't know much on the history of nylon and it's uses, sorry!
John
Re: nit picking
Eliot
If you load the cable with the roadway of a bridge, assuming that this load is uniform along its length, then the shape of the cable becomes a parabola.
