David Weaver helps my practical planing

Re: David Weaver helps my practical planing

Charlie

Somebody has a video, it may be David I can't recall but I know I've seen it, of a plane with a string tied around the front knob and pulling it by the string. With a sharp iron, it takes a shaving all the way down the board, essentially pulling itself 'into the cut' as you mentioned. Dull iron just skips and jutters.

Re: David Weaver helps my practical planing

David Weaver

I think that was ron brese, but it can be done with any flat and sharp plane.

Re: David Weaver helps my practical planing

Charlie

I remembered the one that I saw -- it was from Paul Sellers.

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFItd2yCA7o

Re: David Weaver helps my practical planing

Charlie

I see in the comments that he says the wood being planed is Mesquite -- pretty hard I guess. I've never used it.

interesting...

David Weaver

I may have seen that one, but don't remember it. There are so many presenters out now I don't know if it would be possible to watch all of the content.

The one I recall was Brese (I recall either mahogany or cherry, so that's "less impressive"), but either he or Jameel Abraham was pulling the string on a board edge rather than the face.

..

found it. I didn't think they posted on youtube as youtube claims some media rights while something is posted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c0d2ASiycg

Wrong wood, almost wrong guy (jameel). I think they did this more than once. It looks interesting, but there isn't a person on this forum who couldn't get any reasonably flat and sharp plane to do the same thing.

This is kind of a surprising thing to see

David Weaver

almost two years later now.

Planing probably 40k feet back at that time gives you the benefit of something - seeing the same thing over and over and noticing very small differences.

except, I think that one's not that small. It's pretty stark when you get to plane and start a plane on the same piece of wood over and over.

The second part of it that was interesting was how difficult it became to plane a clean surface on any significant piece of wood if the plane needed a little influence overhead. There'd always be a spot or two where you thought you were bearing down or adjusted and a ripple is left behind.

If I ran that test the same way again XHP would come out on top (larrin thomas put up a data set cutting cards with a catra tester that also suggests the same) aside from the M4 blade (which isn't something easy to buy or make), but I don't use the irons now. works great in the test scenario, but anything at accumulates nicks, I'm not convinced it's less work to use - the edge itself always lasts longer than the ability to avoid nicks, and that's not that practical.

a *btw* with this, too..

David Weaver

..I like tests fine, if they're accurate. XHP will do what I did in the test (and the others in their relative positions, same - uncanny how consistent the results will be and you won't bend reality).

But planing a flat edge for 40,000 feet is a good way to find out what iron does that best. Using one then later in regular work (more heavy work), I'm fairly sure the results don't translate that well.

Point I'm getting to, my reality when not making black dust is that the smoothing is a small part of the work. Your reality is that the fitting is a more important part. The downforce and ideal situation with planing goes away if you're holding the plane sideways, etc, and the sharpness and pull into the cut may be even more important - and staying on top of it will mean less clamping, and less hard clamping when you have to - it'll speed things up a lot.

Undoing some valuable knowledge

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

the edge itself always lasts longer than the ability to avoid nicks, and that's not that practical. It is statements like this one that undo some of the value you provide to the practical novice planer. These surface distractions that you find unacceptable are of no consequence to me. "Of no practical value" becomes a misleading statement which could lead to the practical planer eschewing a blade composition that would provide significantly longer edge life. And why is edge life so compelling?

If your main focus is not putting furniture out the door to friends family or customers you may not appreciate the value of edges that last the project or at least a unit of the project. In building the desk shown there were dozens of planing sessions, each lasting as short as a few seconds and none approaching the time to S4S a stick of lumber. Each placed vastly different demands on the edge in terms of tear-out mitigation or control, and none provided a prediction of whether the plane would perform satisfactorily on the next planing requirement.

The bullnose edge facing is applied slightly oversized then planed near flush, followed by scraping or filing, then sanding. Any plane of any dullness will accomplish this task and there is no feedback of sharpness. The next task for this plane was demanding. The pull out shelf at the top has narrow runners on its bottom, along each edge. Their projection below the bottom surface had to be adjusted for a perfect height fit in the opening. They had to be planed and kept level. Blade too dull to do reliably. I have no idea at what stage of building the desk the plane became too dull for this demanding task. It did the dozen or so preceding short planing tasks just fine.

This boulder in the path of the work flow kept this shelf from getting fit before being called to dinner. And now a day has passed before I have gotten back into the shop to sharpen and finish the desk. This is the last planing need prior to sanding and applying finish. What was it worth to have had edge longevity that would have gotten me to the end?

Every edge I used on this desk will be sharpened upon the desk completion. It is the way I work. Edge life is everything. If it sands out with 120 sand paper I don't care what surface the plane leaves.

It depends on the size of the nick...

David Weaver

I find little tiny tiny lines irritating, but not a deal stopper.

Lines that split shavings of reasonable thickness are. When irons last too long, they'll run into the latter, especially when the abrasion resistance comes at the cost of toughness (XHP is OK for toughness compared to the really high carbide steels, but it's lacking at high hardness for some planing operations).

That's a practical thing for everyone because it can threaten even material removal. Finish planing is finish planing, but jointing an edge with a shaving splitting into two or three is problematic, especially if the shaving is 3 thousandths thick.

Most of the nicking comes either from planing over glue (on assembled stuff) or rough planing (so the XHP makes a great smoothing iron on clean wood, but it's not so great on a jointer or try plane).

I don't have a good sense of what I'm doing vs. what the typical person does, but I do recognize that I can see effort reduction due to the proportion of planing that I do, and people often write off whatever I bore everyone with as "rabbit hole stuff that doesn't fit practical". It isn't, but maybe the amount of work being done with planes when they're just for fitting doesn't warrant deciphering.

I have no clue where any of this counts if someone is making money. I am very lazy, though. If there wasn't a practical gain, I wouldn't be mentioning it.

Boulder in the path of workflow....

John in NM

Classic!

The ones that really irritate me are the perceived boulders that turn out to be simply largish rocks by the end.

Perception of workflow is everything, and it's a huge intangible skill that you get from the experience gained in finishing projects. The work flowing along smoothly keeps you optimistic and contented with what you are doing and that outlook keeps trivial problems in their proper perspective.

Re: Undoing some valuable knowledge

Warren in Lancaster, PA

followed by scraping or filing, then sanding.

There is your answer, right there. Do you really want to talk about time wasters?

*workflow*

David Weaver

I don't want to go into the rabbit hole here of sharpening and grinding times, etc, and methods, but I haven't found XHP to do anything to reduce effort when sharpening and grinding and actual time to needing refreshing enter in.

Nicks are problematic not just due to lower cutting control, but because they have a huge outsized effect on altering downforce. A small fraction of the edge damaged can eliminate it.

I don't know what Charlie does, but he doesn't post much of it. I do remember that he needed a new gasket after I posted the V11/XHP results vs. other steels in clean wood. I knew he was wrong about my test results - you can do them over and over and duplicate them, but I also knew that I'd used V11 in two different planes previously and it didn't reduce labor for two different reasons (the LV custom plane is substantially inferior to a wooden try plane at removing wood, and edge life gets erased in the difference - it's a nickel in a dollar scenario compared to the planes).

After the test, I made several XHP irons for my jointers, etc, and of course for smoothers. They're lovely if you're just finish planing. But in the back of my head was how I wouldn't have noticed the benefit of it on a panel plane sized metal plane and and endgrain shooter.

I don't finish plane with a jointer, just dimension. the edge on the jointer didn't hold up like the smoother. Later fitting bits on the case last year, planing glued areas, again, the edge didn't hold up proportional to the test.

I'm fairly sure this actual use difference is what Charlie would see (even though we can intermittently observe things and still be wrong- if charlie is doing a good bit more than smoothing, as I suspect - I think what he saw was the difference in use vs. the difference in use in a clean wood test). I saw the same.

I sort of went down the rabbit hole, there. Using a single stone to sharpen, and using an iron that stays ahead of the nicks (not just for finish planing purposes) puts the balance back toward plainer steels. If I could get a situation where I was planing miles of wood that came right out of a thickness planer, I think I could show the XHP/test relationship working out. I don't see it in day to day work, though, and have gone back to plainer steels. It's less work.

I'd estimate the time honing with XHP to be 1.5 times that of carbon steel - grinding is about double even on a cbn wheel. This is dependent on the fact that i can remove an appreciable amount on other irons with media that's fast on that stuff but not XHP (if you use only a washita and a grinder for xhp, you will soon get aggravated or grind far more often, or both). With O1/52100, etc. the edge is tougher, I tend to bring irons to the stones only when they're dull (not due to damage), and the sharpening process is faster.

Still think the most important thing is predictability and finding the fastest possible way to sharpen.

I'm out now. kids are off to school, and work to do.

criticism in context, suggestions?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Granddaughter submitted the plans for this desk for me to build it. So any criticism along the lines of I would not build it that way are not relevant to this discussion. I was faced building what she wanted.

I do not find it practical to glue a facing strip on the front edge that is exactly the width of the side. Hence, overhang needs to be trimmed exactly flush. With no evidence Warren has ever faced the task of trimming this overhang he declared scraping, filing and/ or sanding to yield a flush edge a waste of time vs planing.

Without some use of these means how would you plane flush the facing in the corners, the 1/2" foot below the shelf, or the 7" span between the verticals? Is it faster to carefully plane away the last 0.003" of overhang while avoiding planing into the case side or do it with one stroke of the file with no risk of scratching into the case side? When you actually are faced with doing it one soon learns what works best on the job. The criticism of someone reveals they have not done this task.

You can sit at a computer and claim only planing surfaces is the fastest way of building stuff. I'll take note when I see it done in practice. Some parts of this desk were finish sanded before assembly because it was easier that way (interior surfaces for example). This is akin to finish planing them before assembly because you can't plane interior surfaces either. There are numerous chalk marks on this desk where a scuff, or grain raise from an errant glue or water drop landed. They must be finish sanded again before staining. I see no way of finish planing them a second time.

Re: *workflow*

Charlie

... most of what I do is try to figure out how to get a greasy thumbprint off a rail that's a half-inch away from the leg from which the rail has been inset by an eight of an inch... and do it with a plane instead of a piece of sandpaper which I now understand I'm not supposed to use... ;-)

Applied mouldings

Warren in Lancaster, PA

When you were learning how to do this applied moulding work, you came to this forum. I am the one who gave you advice. April 2006. Now you suggest I don't know what I am talking about. Pitiful.

Re: criticism in context, suggestions?

Charlie

"In his 15th century manuscripts, Jehan Le Begue discusses methods of preparing wood for painting. Here he says, "First make the wood very flat and smooth by scraping it, and lastly by rubbing it with that herb which is called shave-grass.1"

An undated Paduan manuscript, perhaps of the 16th or 17th century, gives the following instructions for preparing wood for blackening:

"When the wood has been polished with burnt pumice stone it must be well rubbed with a coarse cloth and with the said powder, bathing the work with German size that it may be more polished; it must then be cleaned with another rag.2"

In his book "Building in England Down to 1540," L.F. Salzman notes:

"For the final smoothing of woodwork the medieval equivalent of sandpaper seems to have been the rough skin of the dog-fish, as 'a skin called hundysfishskyn for the carpenters' was bought, for 9d., at Westminster in 1355. This also appears at Windsor four years earlier: 'in j pelle piscis canini pro operibus stall' -- vjd."3

A 1635 essay by Pierre Lebrun instructs that when preparing wood to imitate ebony, it should be "rubbed with a piece of rag or reed to polish them. After this they are rubbed with a waxed cloth or a piece of wax, to make them shine like ebony. If there are any spots, they are to be removed by rubbing with reeds."4

Notes

(1) Merrifield, Mary P. (editor/translator). Medieval and Renaissance Treatises on the Arts of Painting. Dover Publications, Inc., Mineola, NY,1967, p. 228.

(2) Merrifield, pg. 710.

(3) Salzman, L.F. Building in England Down to 1540. Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1952 (Special edition for Sandpiper Books Ltd., 1997). p. 346.

(4) Merrifield, pg. 818.

http://bloodandsawdust.com/Blood_and_Sawdust/Sand_Paper.html

scrape, sand?

David Weaver

or wash hands!!

I wish I could say that most of my time on the seldom piece of furniture - with corrections, wasn't due to dirty hands or bumps that came unrelated to assembly (or clamp bruising on a moulding, etc while something was held in place).

But that would be a fib.

In my day job, I tend to try to do things that clients care about or that are required/material, and not things that aren't. I'm glad that doesn't apply in the shop. Work principles applied to a woodworking shop would look like a digital trail into CNC machinery with some kind of QC process with a distributor and retention of records for a paper trail.

Eek. I don't think we'd reference two centuries ago - not trying to administer tontines.

did hear...

David Weaver

..when I first started "you should see how good they were with a slide rule".

"Please don't let it rub off on me. This isn't a hobby. "

Re: scrape, sand?

Charlie

I've never been able to avoid having a few nicks, dings, and smudges on a project after it's glued up or after components are glued into position. You might have to steam a dent out, but it'll raise the grain. These are inevitably (insert sad face) right next to another part making it hard or impossible to plane or scrape up to.

I'm working on a restoration/conservation project and an order of five reproduction huntboards (each with a plate rack) -- painted projects in poplar that I've done before (praise Jesus!). I'll send you a photo in process of the latter if you're interested. I'm always doing something. I'm not on the dole. I'm awaiting the arrival of some specialty veneer, the glue pot you sold me (thank you!), and also more poplar for the aforementioned huntboards. In between all of this taking my daughter to school, picking her up, walking the dog, shopping for groceries, fixing dinner, washing clothes, helping with homework, cleaning house, etc., etc.

Cheers!

george broke my heart one day...

David Weaver

..I mentioned that I'd like to build a few archtop guitars and violins. I have to find someone who knows how to tell me if a violin is good, though. I can judge guitars.

I asked george about hand carving tops for a guitar (which in anything other than nosebleed guitars now is a CNC process) and said "would it take a day or two to make a good top?

"it may take more. DO NOT make a violin or guitar with an arch top without finish sanding, or you will regret it in raking light".

Kidding, it didn't break my heart - I've tried scraping arches of guitar to a finish before and it's only something you can get away (in raking light) with a really thick finish. On less than fine work, I think the markings look nice. The open market wouldn't. On something like an attempt at a fine violin, it won't be that great.

There's parts in view in this picture sanded, and parts planed. It's hard to tell which is which (the flat parts are planed, and the rounded parts are scraped and sanded).

Re: did hear...

Charlie

I had the first generation of Excel, which ran in a runtime version of Windows in DOS. I never put that version of Excel through all its paces much less recent versions.

I did write a program in dBase III+, when I worked at FedEx eons ago, that up until a few years ago they were still running in a very small department that dealt with a very small aspect of their logistics. My Fortune 500 claim to fame.

I've always figured...

David Weaver

you were "doing things", and they were "real things", but not posting them by choice.

Isn't anybody just farting around who would get in a big public request over a hide glue pot and pay more than other options to make sure what he was getting was set it and forget it (to focus on what's being glued rather than the glue).

Re: george broke my heart one day...

Charlie

Well, George is certainly no idiot.

Not seeing your pic -- not coming through for me. Could be my ad blocker? Not sure. Will check later. Dog is doing his pee-pee dance.

your's is a curious claim

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I built this piece a year before you claim to have taught me how to put the face molding on it, which I no doubt planed, filed, scraped and sanded according to what was most efficient for the section of molding I was flushing. What exactly was it you taught that I had not learned already?

BTW, you never answered the questions I asked of you.