Rebitting plane irons?

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

Bruce McCrory

You might look into a tool steel forum. While at it, reword the technical terms so people understand what you want. Or, go to Jim Bode and ask him for advice.

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

ken ca

Hi Rafael,

I mentioned pre war Norris irons so I stupidly assumed everyone would know what that meant, sorry. They are 3/16" thick parallel, probably just high carbon steel blades, often blades of that era were called "cast steel", again, I think that is simply high carbon steel.

Brass Brazing looks bad because of the color match, but I bet a scarf joint with silver solder would be far less visible.

Perils of welding

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

You description of the Chinese blade explains why they are possible. The business end of these blades are some lower chromium approximation of M2 tool steel which will not be affected by high heat of wlding, brazing or other meting of metal fusing of the parts together.

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

John in NM

I think you'll have trouble with re-heat treating after either brazing or silver brazing. Either process will draw far too much temper but not get hot enough to re-temper. Less of a problem with a HSS bit I bet, just like with carbide.

I think your tig welding idea has merit. Hard part is keeping it flat, but I from the little welding I've done I think it may be possible for a patient hand to do. Trick is to keep the welds as small spot tacks, flipping frequently to keep the pull even. Overlap tack upon tack until you have the V filled on both sides, then re-harden the piece and hope nothing moves.

High Carbon rod would be best if available. That's where a lot of my inexperience shows - I've only done this kind of thing with mild steel.

What is the goal here

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Given what you have said you want to do, and don't want to do, your goal is unclear. Are you using these planes? If so what is the disadvantage of retiring the authentic blade to maintain its collector value? I presume a new blade will function as well as the original.

Or, if you are restoring these planes to sit on a shelf I don't see how destroying the original blade to make it longer can be called restoring. Seems the blade extension possibilities will substantially lessen the value of the plane and render the blade worthless to a collector.

thoughts...

David Weaver

you either add on a hardened bit and figure out how to weld it (if this is oil hardening steel, i"m not sure how much usable length you'd get even if you could weld it), leaving high speed steels as an appropriate alternative then.

Not very norris - even if you could braze them.

Or, you attempt to braze and then harden and temper. I can't see a braze joint surviving this, but don't know for sure.

Instead, I'd get any good iron that worked, use it in the plane, and then if you want display or to sell the plane put the original short iron back in.

The solid steel irons are probably closer to oil hardening steel (the older ones) than water hardening steel, both for proper hardening and for stability. Having one hardness tested and then planing with it and another known iron of same hardness would give you an idea quickly (oil hardening steel at same hardness outwears water hardening steel by about 20-25%.)

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

Charlie

I think Ron Hock makes, or made, replacement irons that would fit a lot of infill planes. Might be worth checking.

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

Charlie

Check here as well: https://www.toolbazaar.co.uk/shop/old-blades.html?page=all

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

ken ca

Yeah, that's a post war blade, thinner, no good for a pre war plane. Pre war irons are as rare to find in full size as rocking horse poop.

Re: What is the goal here

ken ca

I use one or two of my Norris', many of my collection of 40 or so have full or near full length irons. Some have replacement blades, or very short original Norris blades. The goal, is to turn these near useless short Norris blades into something of full length.

The more I think of it, the more I think it's feasible to weld - actually Mig would probably be better than Tig due to the reduced HAZ. I think I'll try shaping and hardening some O1 steel. Then using a good amount of heat sink between the weld site and the business end of the blade (clamp a large chunk of steel to the blade) do short Mig welds rather like welding sheet metal. This would have to be jigged of course to maintain planarity as best as possible. Plenty of cooling time between "spot" welds.

Re: thoughts...

ken ca

Yes, thinking about it, I also think it would be hard to maintain the hardness of the business end during silver solder. Also, impossible to heat treat after solder. I think Mig may be the answer. Short "spot" welds with plenty of cooling time between and good heat sinking of the bevel end would maintain hardness. OR, just welding it up first, again with Mig, then heat treating afterwards, the Mig weld will not mind the heat treating process. The goal is to get a full length iron but maintaining the original Norris stamp. Hmmmm.......

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

ken ca

True, but I want to keep the original Norris stamp.

If you're going to weld, harden and temper...

David Weaver

I think you're better off just making replacement irons. You can make a nice parallel iron in 2 hours and match the norris surface finish. I'm not going to encourage you to forge the stamp on one, but you could if you really wanted to.

The originals that are solid are unlikely to be true water hardening steel without elements added for hardenability, whereas the bitted irons are probably a higher carbon water hardening steel for better forge welding.

I could be wrong, though - they may have been expensive enough at the time to deal with warpage and loss.

I'd make the irons for them and get just what you want and set the originals aside so as not to discolor them or modify them. If I were going to add a bit to them, I'd do what the chinese do and braze HSS so that when it gets hot during brazing, it rehardens.

Bill had a chinese brazed iron tested and I believe it was still low 60s at the braze, and the business end of it averaged a little over 65 (it's a bit overhard, but still works well).

I've only had maybe 10 norris planes, but never bothered to try to find original irons because they're not that great for the price, and everyone trying to match parts planes with irons to resell (dealers) drives up the price of them.

M2 bit at 60 hardness would probably be pretty nice to use, actually - easy to sharpen aside from holding a wire edge, and could be brazed right to the iron and ground.

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

Wiley Horne

Hi Ken,

This is all beyond my abilities, so can’t help. But am very interested in seeing what you do and the result.

Please post back with your work. Also I’m impressed with 40 Norris infills! That would make a great show and tell—where did they all come from?

Wiley

Open door....Monday joke...

David Weaver

I think they came from London

Oh man....

John in NM

That was such slow pitch that I think Wiley set it up for you!

Still don't get it

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The goal, is to turn these near useless short Norris blades into something of full length.

Ok so I gather they are useless for planing lumber. But if you have 40 of them you clearly didn't buy 39 of them to plane lumber. So what is the purpose of these 39 and how does a short authentic blade affect this purpose? To word another way, how will destroying an authentic blade to make it longer be helpful in any way?

Speculating, I would guess most willing to pay the price for these planes would not interested in either buying a bastardized blade for using or collecting.

Re: Oh man....

Wiley Horne

Like a catfish on a cheeseball😀😀😹😹

Re: Still don't get it

ken ca

It's not very complicated.

These are mainly collectibles, I have other planes for general use. Should I ever wish to sell these planes, the average buyer is not interested in procuring a plane with a blade with 3/8" to the slot, even if they stick it on the shelf. I could procure a replacement blade - ward, sorby whatever, but an original Norris stamped blade adds value - even a rebitted one adds value over a Ward etc.

What's more, I enjoy returning something to usefulness, turning a blade with no life left into something useable gives me satisfaction. I don't care if it takes "too much time and effort", or I'd be better off buying another one.

Re: Rebitting plane irons?

ken ca

Hi Wiley,

Many years ago, I keep saying 20 but I bet it's closer to 25 - I really got into collecting Norris planes. At first it was just procuring a user, but it soon developed into a disease. For the next 15-20 years I bought them fairly regularly, about 5 years ago I lost interest and stopped buying, but I still enjoyed my collection from time to time.

I'll figure out the best way to do this, and upload the results one of these days.

Cheers!

I have your disease, too...

David Weaver

...but a little different. Once I get an ungodly amount of something, then I start feeling the need to build said things, too.

Which makes no sense - if you have too much of something, then why build more of it?

I still think holding the older iron and making irons is a good thing, but I think that only because that's what I do. Then, if I sell a plane, I'll sell both with it if I feel like it will help the value.

O1 irons made to light straw are pretty difficult to beat in terms of ease of making, never really failing to make one well and being sort of close to "Carbon steel", the term that most people use for about 50 different alloys that are plain steel with just a few additives for hardenability.

52100 would make a really nice infill iron, too, and is probably cheaper than O1, but requires a faster quench oil to get the same hardness.