A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

That top one demonstrates how useful dovetails can be - the drawer's still working, even with gaps that most modern furnituremakers would find embarrassing. Thanks for the photo tour.

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Charlie

Who were the makers of the pieces you photographed?

Significant pieces, from known cabinetmakers, sell for eye-watering prices. Not saying that's not what we're looking at, but would like to know more.

Here are examples:

https://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.co.uk/home

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

This Gallery goes to England once or twice a year, buys up what they can find and ships it back to their storage in Shelbyville. As far as I can tell there is no effort to find out who made any of it. Most is approximately dated. A typical chest of drawers is about $5000+/-.

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Charlie

We have a dealer in Memphis with a similar modus operandi, though the prices are somewhat higher.

She ends up with some pretty nice stuff:

https://www.mfordcreech.com/furniture.html

by appointment...

David Weaver

..there was a lady near me (central PA) when I was a kid who did the same thing.

Before the days of the internet, she had sort of a reputation as being one of the legit dealers because lots of others just got a hold of anything they could and marked it up.

Things may have changed, but when ebay first opened up to overseas shipping, I saw quickly why this was such a great idea for a dealer - hand made antique furniture in the UK of average notoriety (but well executed) has very little value.

mid sized chest of drawers with carved elements on it and hand cut dovetails may be a tenth of the sale price here.

The age of our local dealer made it so that her business timed out long before the internet and the desire for people of my generation to change the interior every 20 years has eliminated at least half of the larger shops back home (new oxford) that had older hand made furniture.

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Charlie

Visit the link I posted and click on some of the pieces -- she shows the construction on most of them.

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Charlie

Here's an example. Lots of details visible, like sliding dovetail top to case joinery:

https://mfordcreech.com/Fine_Early_George_III_Mahogany_Serpentine_Chest_of_Drawers_England_c1760.html

Still, this obviously isn't Chippendale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=19s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE7BbpzWdik&t=490s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tOzQsHnd68

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ3Vb6cD0yE

Re: A tour of English drawers 1700-1850

Charlie

You might like this:

https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/drawer-front-dovetail-evolution/

alternative explanation for skinny pins

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I did indeed like it. I followed this author some years ago , then lost track of him. Thanks for the reconnection.

So, he claims that English pins are what they are to minimize exposed end grain of the drawer front. I don't find his argument convincing, but then I don't know anything about the environment English furniture lived in vs the US colonies where such skinny pins are uncommon in my limited experience. Mahogany is such a stable wood I would think that colonial furniture (and later) made of walnut and cherry and maple would have benefited from less end grain exposure more than mahogany. Yet cabinet makers in the US did not embrace skinny pins.

Furthermore, if end grain exposure was such a concern the cabinet maker would have dabbed some finish on this part of the drawer to slow moisture exchange.

For now I will remain attached to Alan Batty's explanation that it is simply quicker to make an English drawer this way.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

David Weaver

while the exposure might be less on maple or something of the like, the movement of the drawer faces would probably still be greater over time, threatening to break thin pins.

I don't have any explanations and am more interested in the why than the furniture (not really interested in furniture in general), but also wonder if one becomes standard in one place that regardless of the reason, it's expected to have a certain look and furniture looking another way in a given region will lack appeal.

After this discussion yesterday, I went to ebay to look for vintage furniture (in europe - not on ebay here). It is still a vibrant market of things you wouldn't begin to make for 4 times the going rate. If I had a need for furniture, I'd be tempted to buy a large amount of it rather than making it when you can get things like a veneered bombe chest with fancy marquetry on the sides for $500.

Didn't even think to look at the american ebay.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Charlie

Possibly they were leaving no stone unturned to keep veneered drawer fronts from moving. I read elsewhere (can't recall the source at the moment) that pins were glue-sized for the same reason. Given the lengths we go to to seal end grain or cover it up altogether it tends to make sense.

"Jack Plane" doesn't appear to have a casual knowledge of the subject. I think he was an antiques dealer before retirement.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

"Jack Plane" was an antique dealer, antique furniture restorer, and furniture maker. While he and I used to butt heads a great deal in the past, I have the utmost respect for his knowledge on furniture over the ages, construction, and skill as a maker. He retired about a decade or so ago. Originally from the UK, he migrated to and settled outside Melbourne (I believe). Very private man.

Whatever he writes on his blog is far more likely to be accurate than the thoughts of Alan Batty (who did not know what a "slip" was), with all due respect to AB.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Jack Plane" doesn't appear to have a casual knowledge of the subject.

When I followed him some years back he was also building some fine pieces of Period furniture.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Charlie

Thanks Derek. His blog and build-alongs are always illuminating.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Charlie

Oh yes, some great builds for sure.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Whatever he writes on his blog is far more likely to be accurate than the thoughts of Alan Batty (who did not know what a "slip" was), with all due respect to AB.

A rather strange thing to say. I don't see where the experience or information from these two sources overlap to enable disagreement. What inaccuracy did you see that I didn't?

Alan worked in an English factory making drawers as part of his journeyman experience. The drawer he described for me is exactly the drawer I see in Wakefield-Scearce and what Plane described if you followed Charlie's links. After this experience he returned to turning and ran a shop for decades making turned parts for houses and other things, including billiard balls. He could turn a billiard ball in the blink of an eye.

He didn't know about slips because that factory did not use them. He probably wouldn't know about veneering because he didn't ever do it either. But I believe Alan knew what he did to make the drawers he made. And I will bet the factory was attuned to making a drawer as efficiently as possible.

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

He didn't know about slips because that factory did not use them.

Bill, that supports my comment. He offered what he knew. I am not denying Alan Batty's skills as a furniture maker. No doubt he was well-grounded from apprenticeship upwards. However, he was not a student of the craft in the academic sense.

However, "Jack Plane" was (and remains) not only a skilled craftsman, but he was in a position to be a student of furniture that stretched over centuries. He continues to study them and write about them. Hence, his writings and knowledge are a more reliable source than that of your friend and mentor.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: alternative explanation for skinny pins

Charlie

I believe Wallace Nutting mentioned the use of drawer slips on 18th C. Newport case pieces in one of the "Furniture Treasury" volumes. I'll see if I can find the exact quote.

some misconceptions

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I am not denying Alan Batty's skills as a furniture maker. He never made furniture. His apprentice was as a turner. As part of the journeyman training he did a stint making drawers, then returned to turning.

However, "Jack Plane" was (and remains) not only a skilled craftsman, but he was in a position to be a student of furniture that stretched over centuries. He continues to study them and write about them. agreed

Hence, his writings and knowledge are a more reliable source Well, that depends on what one wants to know. If the question is how drawers were made in a 1950's factory I would ask Batty.

than that of your friend and mentor. I spent 2 days with him and then corresponded a bit and then he died. Neither friend or mentor.

Great stuff

Winston

This is really interesting reading. Does anyone know if there are books out there with similar content?

Re: Great stuff

Charlie

There are dozens and dozens of books about English furniture. You'd have to pick the period and style you're interested in and you'd still need to narrow it down from there.

yes but.....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

While there are countless books that have pictures of furniture what I think was asked is are there books that describe how it was put together?

Re: yes but.....

Charlie

Not a lot as far as I know. The plates in Wells & Hooper's Modern Cabinet Work give a glimpse on the internals of some fairly complicated forms. It's by no means exhaustive as to various periods and the plates are not exploded, U Build It style diagrams we're used to seeing now. Hayward's book on English period furniture has a nice section at the back of the book on chairs and a little bit about how parts were fabricated and go together.

Shop practices varied of course. Some built better than others.

There are a couple of books out there with a thousand plates + each of just the moldings on period English furniture. Point being is that there's a lot of help out there to get the externals right, the internal workings are up to the cabinetmaker.

Re: yes but.....

Charlie

The late V.J. (Victor John) Taylor has a book, Period Furniture Projects (all English furniture) that consists of a photo from an auction house (I think all Sotheby's) and then Taylor's take on how it was (or should?) be built along with a cut list -- a dozen or so projects, along with some basic cabinetmaking stuff in the back. He has another book, How to Build Period Country Furniture (mostly English, some American), that's similar though not in color and the original projects are line drawings. Again, some basic cabinetmaking techniques covered as well. Both of these books have exploded drawings.