oil on waterstones and the converse...

Isn't the prohibition really on mixing?

Jim Matthews

It would seem to me that the real problem is washing oil out of a porous medium.

We don't sweat adding water to Arkies, because we have paper towels in this country.

I'm guessing there are Japanese carpenters using oil when they don't have water available

(on site, no facilities available, Mothra took out the dam again...)

Really fine gun oil or sewing machine oil should make a fine slurry.

quick trial and I remembered....

David Weaver

...why I would use something like an extrafine india (not that easy to find) over a mid grade waterstone with oil (cliff may have a different idea with the kings as they'd leave a less scratchy look on a knife bevel where people actually look at those things on the bevel and not just the edge)....

...waterstones are soft. The vitrified stones don't care if you push a chisel into them.

I just oiled a porous knife waterstone and gouged it on the first stroke (forgot about that using oilstones!!)

Yes on the mixing - with natural stones, the oil doesn't penetrate deeply and can be removed by something as simple as a soak in diluted simple green. Not so sure about synthetics intended to be porous.

I'd venture to guess the no-name knife finisher that I just oiled is about 5000 grit rating, and very soft. very very soft, which a knife person would like (no visible scratches with the grit tumbling and little to no burr formation). I failed to remember that unoiled vitrified stones (And thus the waterstones intended to soak) will take in the mineral oil, and it will gradually "flow" out of the bottom.

So, interesting idea after listening to the video - forgot that vitrified stones are likely filled with an oil that is not liquid at most reasonable room temperatures. On the razor board, the suggestion was warm vaseline.

one other side comment - filling with oil does slow down waterstone cutting a little bit for obvious reasons (suspension of oil instead of water) - at least on fine waterstones, and the surface and edge finish of the aforementioned knife finisher is a bright polish instead of not that.

Interestingly, too, the two or three ultrafine india stones that I've gotten from japan have been oil free (they were used with water). They are a super useful stone for a freehander - probably what most people would like rather than a fine india. I've seen before that norton has a part number for them, but I've never seen them on the ground (the japanese stones are unmarked or have nonsensical translated names on them).

relevant deer experience

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The experimentation is great fun and occasionally leads to practical discovery. However, it should not get in the way of getting needed work done.

Having a banner year of deer hunting which resulted in going from critter lying dead in the woods to freezer packages, three times. Sharpening stuff is downstairs in shop, everything else upstairs in kitchen, out in the woods or in the barn for skinning and quartering. I was focused on the tasks at hand and uninterested in sharpening nuance.

I am reminded of a previous post where the person was in a quandary of chisel bevel angles and how to achieve them exactly. Anyway, an 8"" combination India was the first stone my eyes encountered, withdrew it from the sharpening stone shelf and touched up the various knifes, followed by a quick buff, as the processing proceeded. The knives worked. Guts came out, skin came off, joints were separated, bones boned, muscle groups separated.

When one is focused on getting a job done, good enough for the task at hand becomes the metric driving decisions. Were these edges 80% as sharp as they could be, or 90.....It didn't really matter if they were good enough.

This experience has relevance to woodworking. Is a 35 degree bevel better than 34? It could be but the relevant question could be is it good enough when the chisel is needed right now. Save finding which is better for a later day of research. And for sure don't let the deer spoil while deciding if the edge of this stone is better than another. There will be a time when hunting is poor to do knife (or chisel, or plane) research.

Re: relevant deer experience

Jerome

Meat processing used to be handled with shards of a broken stone. I still have a shoe box full of these cromagnon relics. Thousands of years old. No a spot of rust.

Someday however, one these guys must have found the time to invent the metal blade we are still optimizing. They were known to have lots of free time and plenty of deers.

I don’t know if we managed to achieve a better cutting edge than a shard of an obsidian stone though.

not at that skill level yet

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If I tried to process a deer with an obsidian flake I would wind up more bloody than the deer.

I used to sell lambs to eat. Somebody bought two for a house warming party. The host and a visiting MD from Africa came out to get them. The host wanted to participate in preparing the carcass. I busied myself on one lamb, cutting the hide around the hind leg ankles, inserting a spreader stick, hoisting and then peeling off the hide. I hoped the host and MD would stay out of the way so I could get on with it.

Part way through the first lamb I took a break and turned around to chat a bit. To my astonishment the other lamb was skinned and laid out on its hide. What the hell, I thought, have I (not) witnessed. The African MD explained they did not have trees where he grew up and they had to do it on the ground. To have had a video. I never saw a bit of it.

In theory.....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

An edge achieved by flaking can taper to something approaching one atom thickness. However, the practical limit is limited by the strength of the glass as the tip becomes thinner. In any case, it will be sharp, but toughness of the material will limit sharpness and application.

On a related note, breakage of vaccine vials results in significant loss. Loss of precious vaccine is current concern. Corning has developed a new glass that is tougher. The boron in the glass is replaced by aluminum(I think it is Al, can't find article) to achieve the tougher glass.

One hopes FDA worked overtime over the holidays reviewing data for approval.

Best commercially available meat...

Jim Matthews

Lamb is underutilized as a main protein course.

Quick to market, browses widely, won't churn pastures.

Downsides are losses in cold weather (and they are blindingly stupid).

We just had my Thanksgiving "Cincinnati style" chili with Lamb shank (bone in).

one error

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

blindingly stupid.

They have their ways, sometimes interpreted by humans as stupid, but they are not. Their intelligence is focused on food. We have returned sheep to the farm after months of absence and had them immediately go to where they were fed to see if some tasty grain had been provided for their arrival. They also excel at escape. Most are excellent mothers.

I don't know what cliff does...

David Weaver

..but he uses some terminology (and some he's made up) that knife people favor, but generally does practical testing that we'd find useful (vs. solving problems that don't exist - S30 is very abrasive resistant for someone who would cut abrasive materials all the time, but it solves a problem I don't have because it loses fine edge holding in exchange for it).

I never paid much attention to any other knife channel because a lot of them were focused on doing reviews for the next 1/4" thick knife. That kind of stuff, cliff would lampoon (doing a slicing test with a 1/4" thick knife).

I mentioned something to Cliff in a comment on his videos about having less than stellar experience with a few wondersteels and being more focused on keeping a tool sharp to slice and pondered why people would pass on a $40 knife that they could keep sharp all the time for a $250-$2000 knife that they probably couldn't sharpen properly and that would punish them if it ever took any damage, and he more or less said the knife community (the retailers and buyers, not the smiths) is full of people who don't use their knives for anything -they're an easy target.

I missed this jewel years ago (I never watched all of his videos - just was particularly stopped in my tracks when he talked about edge failure in another video and setting where it occurs, as well as talking about how to modify one steel vs. another so that an inferior steel matches a superior steel. The latter sounds like a free lunch - it's not - it was more along the lines of discussing a common setup for a wondersteel and then finding a setup for a more simple steel that would match it in a particular test....e.g, where bevel thickness affects slicing ability as an edge wears, something like 12c27 will match S30 if the S30 is sharpened at an angle where the 12c27 survives at 5 degrees less. The point of something like that is that S30 is a terrible fine edge steel, but extremely good at what knife people call a working edge right after the fine edge fails. We don't have a lot of love for a lumpy working edge, and when someone goes edge chasing with s30 or s35 and fattens the bevel so that the fine edge holds, then it performs less well slicing - the whole point of a fine edge - than simple steels).

This is a little out of context now, because there's a lot of love for the simpler steels, especially by forgers experimenting with thin bevel knives that are a treat in slicing meat, veggies, etc. 10-12 years ago, there was a lot of talk on forums that one couldn't make a workable knife with 440c or 1095, etc, that they just became dull too fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_s1wDBHHm8&ab_channel=CliffStamp

Just this morning, I came across this video - one I hadn't seen before (it's more than 5 years old, which is about the time I was watching Cliff's new videos because I had some interest in the high carbide steel - and wanted to see what would happen with stuff like cpm121 rex).

Cliff literally says he dulls the apex with a roundover to protect the edge while chopping.

I may have stumbled on the uni a little sooner if I'd have gone backwards through the video. He also said, though, that he rounded it so much that sharpness is lost. We haven't perceived such a thing (because we're not rounding that much). I'll make a separate post about the apex...

The apex and perceived sharpness...

David Weaver

..in another video, cliff mentioned the practical apex limit on a 15+15 knife (30 degrees, awfully close to what we like to use as a general angle in woodworking). He said some number of microns as being the practical limit for a finished edge in most steels. It was something like 4 or 6, and that it's easier to nail the apex if you don't create a burr, and especially if you don't use a sharpening medium with tumbling grit.

I didn't pay attention to any of this stuff 5 or 6 years ago. The discussion of apex size, I"ll leave that to other people, but here's my point in terms of curiosity.

We know we're rounding the edge of a unicorned tool. Why does it still feel sharper than all but very tedious efforts with stones (that we aren't inclined to go through in daily woodworking - these tedious efforts being a declining pressure scale back and forth on an edge, something that would take 10 minutes done right - much like establishing the first edge on a razor).

I am guessing that the soft touch of the buffer may create less desirable sharpness geometry, but that it's able to make a smaller apex than we can create by hand.

Re: The apex and perceived sharpness...

Wiley Horne

Good thought! Agree on finer apex. And extending that logic, less tooth to the edge.

And it fixes whatever incomplete sharpening may be hiding on the back side right below/at the edge. [Not an issue for you, but I like the ‘insurance policy’.]

Wiley.

S30 V and world of other important properties

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We were working with Crucible Steel on woodworking applications for CPM3V as S30V was being promoted for knives. We gained some insight to its properties. S30V was developed to be a stainless version of 3V. So what was it about 3V that they tried to match in S30V because there was a market for it? It was an optimization of toughness at high hardness and superior abrasion resistance in a stainless steel. If you are making a knife to slice tomatoes this steel has no advantage, though I have yet to encounter a knife made from any quality steel that could not be made to slice tomatoes good enough.

Your discussions overlook the need in some applications for toughness and in the case of knives, corrosion resistance. We worked with Jerry Hossom who made custom knives for combat forces. It had to survive hacking and whacking and prying open doors near the ocean (I suppose). Nuances of edge superiority vanished when the hacking and whacking commenced (I suppose). Jerry said toughness was critical. I'll take his word for it. When I see how knives are used on the farm toughness is more important than razor sharpness. They do a lot of prying.

I quit carrying a carbon steel hunting knife decades ago. That squirrel blood that sat on the blade for hours created corrosion I didn't need to deal with with a 440C knife. All the reasons you disdain a 440C knife were irrelevant to my needs. All the other properties were good enough and corrosion resistance trumped them all.

We have all these steels that come to different compromises in toughness, hardness, abrasion resistance, corrosion resistance , ability to achieve straight razor sharpness, because there are markets than demand different optimization among these variables.

Customers that actually use these knives will find what works best for them. I carry a 440C hunting knife. You can not offer me a steel that will offer any practical advantage slicing open a deer belly. Ponder this fact when discussing sharpness nuances. They are meaningless out in the field.

Beyond that function I demand a shape that avoids puncturing guts as the belly is opened, stainless to avoid blood corrosion, a handle color that won't get lost in the leaves, light weight, resistant to dulling when cutting against bone, etc. Each factor only needs to be good enough. I met the need for less than $20 at Smoky Mt. Knife Works. The knife has no snob appeal, which is another market.

More on knife shape please

Wiley Horne

Bill,

You mentioned knife shape in avoiding puncturing or slicing into intestines (i believe) when opening the carcass. What shape is good and what not so good?

Wiley

Re: S30 V and world of other important properties

TomD

We pretty much have to start from the point that there is no practicality to these experiments. It is like story telling, there is an interesting path to follow and something may ultimately come of it. Disposable components, or something similar, is pretty much where industry is.

I got deep into all this kind of thing when I was preparing for my bike tours in the 2000s. There is a deep well of technical blather where bikes are concerned, and it was interesting to see all the things that seemed important before I hit the road, and the ideas I then became consumed with after some of the tours. But on the tour, the vast majority of things not connected to reliability were basically wastes of time. I have been around gear for 60 years, but that was my first experience of the impact the internet had on gear discussions, tempered by some kind of real world contrast.

I could not be less interested in the idea of oil on waterstones, because the main advantage to waterstones is the absence of oil. I don't have a tap, I don't want to use up paper towels or solvents. Things that sharpen dry are even better, particularly through the winter. Just for my situation.

two things...

David Weaver

..all of these are meaningless for hand tools for woodworking (But someone getting fascinated with the knife community's regard could determine that there's something more useful about the complex carbide steels than there is with simpler steels - I've gone back to using carbon steel for everything at this point - it just does better for someone who does more than clean wood smoothing - though XHP is the closest thing to something I'd work with -I'd never consider S30 for any woodworking tools)

When V11 first came out, it sort of fell into a space of being the next best edge holding to japanese chisels. I've come to learn over time that most chisel tests favor hardness. Whatever is hardest, that will win (as long as something isn't overhard. A japanese chisel at C67 is overhard. A good one at 65 is awfully difficult to beat). When I got the V11 chisel to use in the unicorn test, I expected it would be pretty easy to accommodate it, but it wasn't - I didn't manage to get it not to give up a little bit of its edge in any test, and it ground hotter (which means you need to grind it more slowly in terms of time spent standing at the grinder) and honed slower. I can't see a virtue in it for chisels unless someone makes a false comparison to a softer plain carbon steel chisel. But that's about hardness and not about the steel.

The second thing is, I actually like 440C. It's S30 and the higher carbide knives that I have no regard for because they fail coarsely. I just don't like the feel of it. If I was going to carry a stainless knife, it would probably be 440c at 60 (it would still sharpen on the buffer well, and it can be made relatively finely). XHP is fine ,too, but I'm not sure i trust PM in thin clip blades, etc, since it doesn't have a predominant grain direction.

If we're talking about making chisels and plane irons, I can't get too interested in what's great for knives if it's not great for plane irons and chisels. So far, the PM steels have some kind of compromise that I don't like for chisels. 3V's terminal hardness after temper is lower than I'd like, it's rubbery to sharpen without an advantage in edge holding, XHP seems to be difficult to accommodate and carbon steel chisels seem to go pretty easily to high hardness if that's desirable and their fine edge holding is better at it.

Re: S30 V and world of other important properties

David Weaver

I'm not sure I follow why oilstones aren't better in winter (that's one of the things that led me to them).

20 years ago, I bought a road bike. I bought it from a shop that sold bikes for long mileage enthusiasts more than to magazine trends and one of the guys working there wouldn't recommend dura ace components (things may have changed since then) on bike builds. To the point that he would work a buyer over a little bit before he'd allow them to install them.

I asked why, and he said over the ultegra group, they had a slight advantage in weight and they were worse in regard to durability and reliability by miles.

Taking bike advice from magazines and endorsers (or tour riders) is kind of like getting tool advice from rob cosman. He's there to sell first, advice is second. If he's not paying for any of the tools he's using then they're probably not going to be what he'd use if he had to actually use them without being filmed. There's some disconnect with tour winners, though (they have a proven record) - maybe the small weight difference could make some difference. For a guy carrying an extra ten pounds, it's a whole lot cheaper to lose two pounds than it is to save 300 grams on the components for another $500, and then look at repeat buying.

One of the reasons I liked Cliff's videos is because he sort of ridiculed the "next blade steel" market if someone was looking just to use knives.

I was listening to his channel through wireless headphones earlier today and thought he was doing a point by point review (distracted by actually working on something unrelated to his audio) and then I realized he was lampooning knife reviewers as he went into a long diatribe about two key parts of knives been handles and blades, and for him he "has to have at least one of those two in a knife" but he "does prefer a knife with both". But he did do other videos showing things like the carpet test, showing both fine edge and working edge life with various steels - which did illuminate the usefulness of an abuse knife with certain high carbide steels (to someone like me who just wouldn't use a knife for whatever the abuse was - the fine edge holding being no better on a high carbide knife and the sharpening then being a nuisance is a turn off).

As far as the ABS competitions, five years ago or so when youtube recommended cliff's channel to me, I saw a linked discussion on a forum about S30 and other stuff being pushed by spyderco, cold steel, etc, as must haves vs. 52100 (and forwarding the idea that cast steel knives were pretty much unusable vs. the new PM knives). Of course, spyderco and cold steel, etc, would have a group of customers who already had 440C and maybe some other knives out there (i doubt 52100, but who knows) and the fastest way to get a new group of buyers is to get competitors using a knife made of super steel.

But some of the knives made of PM steel were breaking after a period of a couple of years and getting replaced. The 52100 knives still being used never had such a problem (probably due to grain direction in the steel vs. no such thing in powdered steel knives).

It reminds me of guitar gear and rifle bullets and such, though. Just get people to write about it and get competitive shooters or professional players to use whatever is new. They're in business - they will sell anything, even if they don't use something on their own hunts or in their own studios when nobody is looking - like tom selleck peddling reverse mortgages. I remember getting my first rifle - chambered in 300WSM. Winchester wanted everyone to buy it and said it was more accurate and more powerful than the 300win mag due to better efficiency. The first box of ammo that I purchased blew four primers out - that's extremely dangerous as one of those primers could end up in the action and then in the barrel (it's a sign of overpressure, too, but the guns would be damaged by that, and not me). They loaded down the 300 win mag and overpressured the WSM so that they could print statistics showing something that made no sense. There was a claim of improved accuracy, too, but the rifle I bought (a model 70) was my least accurate rifle. They got me. My next bench rifle (as a hand loader) was a 22-250 and then a 300WBY - neither new to the market, both far more favorable for someone loading their own. Nothing was really written about them at the time (no new money to be made).

you know the world of guitars. I haven't seen a nashville session player playing a bone stock fender or gibson modern guitar in a long time, but if they get somewhere that they're popular enough to be an endorser, they'd gladly have a "signature" model and choke down playing it sometimes on stage as per their contract (or more commonly, a custom or ghost built guitar with the same markings).

I spent an interminable Spring

Jim Matthews

...wrangling lambs in Montana.

The daily tangle in barbed wire, often the same escapee formed my opinion.

The only time they were cooperative was before shearing and culling.

At least they're not mean, like horses.

Re: oil on waterstones and the converse...

Warren in Lancaster, PA

Pliny distinguished between oil stones and water stones and noted that this distinction was from "ancient times". He was writing in 79 AD.

He doesn't do woodworking tools, so sometimes, his comments won't make sense to us (like "plateau" sharpening, where the objective is to sharpen just to the point but not raise a burr - done with knives not for some kind of dippy idea about preserving an edge, but rather preserving the actual life of the knife by not raising a burr and then having to hone through the burr).

(side comment, the idea of plateau sharpening isn't so ridiculous with carving tools, but doesn't make as much sense time-wise for heavier use tools).

There are two arguments for sharpening until a burr is formed. One is that the burr starts forming before the rounding that comes from wear is eliminated. Depending on how dull the tool is, it could be that alot of burr or a very small burr is needed. The other is that to burr forms before any chips or irregularities are eliminated.

I doubt that Cliff Stamp has ever worn out a knife by sharpening to a burr, and I doubt he uses carving gouges.

knife shape

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The lime green handle makes it easier to find when dropped in leaves during what is described below.

I like a skinner style for every part of dealing with a dead deer. Sufficiently sharp it will cut a slit at the breast bone, stopping at the breast bone. Then with the tip inserted edge up and just below the skin, the skin can be opened up to the crotch by pushing the blade in that direction. The point shape keeps the tip just under the skin without dipping into the membrane holding the guts in.

The risky part comes next. The whatever it is called needs to be opened to expose that which lies beneath. The slightest nick into this stuff leaks digestive fluid into the body cavity and the tender loin and maybe even the loin will be tainted by this taste. It is likely why many dislike deer.

This membrane is carefully sliced to make a small opening at the breast bone. Middle and index finger is inserted into the opening and the blade, tip up, inserted between these fingers. Knife pushed to crotch. Fingers push guts below knife tip during travel.

A ring is cut around the butt hole. Diaphragm is mostly cut loose. Reaching way up the wind pipe and esophagus is grasped in one hand and severed by the knife in the other. A short knife makes this operation less risky to the hand holding parts to be cut. A stout yank and everything comes out with no spillage of what is inside, usually along with a torrent of blood if lung shot, the preferred way to kill for meat.

If the knife is sharp enough to do these steps it is good enough. Even more than a chisel, all the other aspects of the tool override the importance of the steel beyond some threshold value. One has to wonder if the people devoting themselves to exploring nuances of knife steel ever use one in some practical way.

4th grade grand daughter is studying the digestive system in science so I seized the opportunity to provide her pictures of what is inside a deer. It has provided me an opportunity to show I have some practical experience behind my information.

Re: I spent an interminable Spring

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

At least they're not mean, like horses.

Apparently you did not deal with older rams. I had one that would put you on your ass if you turned your back on him. Mine got sold after their 3 rd year when they tended to take a turn at meanness. Agree with the escapees and barbed wire. We eliminated all but woven wire from the farm, offering a retarded lamb the opportunity to get his head stuck weekly.

Insurance...

David Weaver

I've bought so many tools in the last 15 years that I do kind of need that policy on some. That is, I sort of quickly and coarsely prepare the chisel backs and allow subsequent sharpening to fine them up.

Wearing out vs..

David Weaver

I doubt cliff has worn out a knife doing that, either, but the market may be like it is for razors. Any visible height loss or spine wear on a razor halves the value or worse.

I think the objective of plateau sharpening has more to do with not rolling over an edge, though. I don't share the same sense of cheapness for knives.