what chisel shape would you choose..

Re: Just for fun, David

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I asked the fellow about making a chisel about 10 years ago. He has a fine national reputation for 18th century work. I gathered, though, that he had not done much edge tool work. I would have preferred 1095, 1080, w1, even o1. I think if the fellow in the video were making chisels regularly he would have used bar stock for the steel, not cut up coil spring.

I am so shocked to find that someone considers 5160 appropriate for chisels, I don't know what to say.

The important thing on youtube...

David Weaver

..isn't making things historically correct or being an expert about all of the details, it's:

1) making something that's entertaining

2) allowing people to experience making something without having to do it or considering the details

3) understanding the youtube algorithm and things to not do that would cause demonetization

4) avoid controversial topics that have nothing to do with the content

5) good lighting and good editing

To me, all of those things would be a lot harder than making an ideal chisel, but I think it's really really hard to do all of the things above and also convey really accurate information. If reality was really interesting, they wouldn't have to script reality shows.

Re: 5160 vs. 1095

David Weaver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFJxvl50t90&ab_channel=Tac

most of the tests that I've seen look like this - using a knife as a froe, a hatchet, prying with the tip to see whether or not it will bend or break off.

All of these are going the opposite directly from a knife that slices well (something that will tolerate a thinner bevel an spine and hold a fine edge).

In searching out of curiosity, I found a guy who had a huge D2 knife with a double hollow grind, and it had some kind of strange thin point profile. He bent the point and buckled the bevel and complained about the $80 price of the knife (before he did the abusing).

I couldn't personally figure out what the knife would've been good for - it was supposed to be a hunting knife, but it looked like it had a 9 inch blade with a strange shape (a four or five inch knife is very nice to use).

The trouble for warren was probably that the blacksmith was used to making things where not breaking was first and use of a fine edge was second or fifth.

(I figure - cross posting here - there may not be something that accurate about burning a handle in - I'm sure it was done - I haven't thought really hard about the handles yet and just wanted to fit them quickly. Last time I mentioned burning in, I think it was brought up that there are better ways to fit a handle, and not just in the sense of drilling and epoxying).

ABS master bladesmith test  *LINK*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNh6UvE8lA

Re: 5160 vs. 1095

TomD

The ABS smiths are a really talented bunch, and one can learn a lot about heat treating and forging from them. But they have a quirky sense of what a knife should be, and it is not a good basis for woodworking tools.

The knife field suffers from primarily being overlaid on marginal activities (by today's standards) like fighting, survival, and hunting. A lot of tests are done in magazines. These tests were designed to test the knives in imagined drastic scenarios, but they have become an end in themselves. The use of knives is often repeating these tests. So they have created a feedback loop that is not rooted in reality.

I have learned a lot from these people's methods, but I would not try to replicate their results in woodworking tools, as they are not the same conditions I encounter in the shop.

Also, once you are making your own tools, you do not have to make use of commercial standards either. A plane blade costs me about 50 cents a square inch, and takes under 45 minutes to make. So that opens up a lot of opportunities that you do not have if you are buying tools retail. You have the tools to handle sharpening you would not be able to do in most shops, and you can adjust hardness if you run into any problems down the line. It is great to ponder what some ideal tool might be in some market I am not actually addressing. But that is not what being a custom maker is about. You can actually adjust edge holding/sharpening ease, to the woods you actually use. Though with a 2 hp grinder, sharpening ease is pretty much a non-issue.

Not being unnecessarily harsh here...

David Weaver

..but I've seen that test before and have guessed that this bladesmithing society is kind of a newer hobby thing (i'm sure some of the members are professionals, but different than a maker of surgical tools in sheffield, etc, would've been). I've never looked before, but just went and looked now and it's sometime after 1972.

I think what you're getting at is that this is sort of the culture that knifesmiths work to - to make a knife that is doing a lot more than slicing, whereas the average knife in private use is doing a whole lot of slicing (or dressing animals if it's a hunting knife).

In the background running (i'm not seeing videos, just hearing the audio), i let youtube roll on knife test videos and one of the testers has spent all of the time in all of the tests "processing firewood" (in his terms).

One of the reasons that I really liked cliff stamp's videos was that he spent a fair amount of time testing and considering knives in those types of tests vs. tests that would imitate normal use (cutting carpet, cutting rope, etc). It turned out that thinner beveled knives with fairly plain steel fared a lot better in the normal use tests, and I found a lot if parallels between his slicing tests and edge life for planing - but that's sometimes a little bit too realistic to be useful for someone just looking for a certain feel (like a hefty knife that you can really beat).

Re: 5160 vs. 1095

TomD

I have mostly have Japanese knives in the kitchen, just a bi-product of LV having them around while I was collecting Japanese tools. I really like the traditional forged chef's knife in larger sizes. I also like... Good quality plastic handled kitchen knives in the larger sizes like 10 in and 12 inch. Mercer makes a good one. With the celebrity chef thing, there are a lot of celebrity knives out there, but they don't all pass NSF standards, for what the is worth. Meanwhile, 6 dollar chef's knives remain the backbone of kitchens.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-10-white-chef-knife/220KWCHEF10.html

Good point

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I don't know much about the people that bang on metal as a hobby, or business, but it seems that some/most? like to repurpose metal as an important consideration. How else to explain the many knives I have seen made from RR spikes or the demand for worn out files.

Then consider that the goal may be a tool that looks good and performs adequate and maybe doesn't cost much . For some/most? the goal may not be to make the best performing tool, achieved by selecting the optimum steel.

However, when it comes time for the finals on Forged in Fire the contestants seem to pick a piece of virgin steel optimized for the task, and not something salvaged from the junk yard. (I have only watched a few episodes so maybe my conclusion is not broadly correct).

If the goal is to make something adequate, or to practice making something, I can understand starting with a cheap raw material that will work, or even to see if it will work.

There are dozens of kinds of steel because there are thousands of applications where an optimum property(s) is desired. Minor constituents down to a fraction of a per cent are optimized for this or that application. I would think that a leaf spring steel would have to have superior fatigue resistance, an irrelevant consideration for a chisel. Toughness at high hardness would not be an important property for a leaf spring while it is an essential property for a chisel. Then add home forging and heat treating requirements. And there must be others.

I am reminded of turners. They turn anything for practice or fun. But if the order was for Croquette balls and mallets to sell or to be personally used by a serious player one would want to select a species of wood that was optimum and specify its moisture content. The analogues raw material "skids from used pallets" would not be an informed choice for these products.

Again a topic I have little experience with, but it seems that Japanese chisels are primarily "white" or "blue" steel. I have not heard of these forgers bashing out chisels from Toyota springs and discarded files, but maybe some do.

The bottom line of it all, when it comes time to forge chisels to be keepers or to sell it would seem prudent to select a virgin steel optimally suited for the forging, heat treating and properties for ultimate use. This steel is not going to be some repurposed scrap of presumed composition. But for practice, or fun, or garnering Utube revenue, springs are trendy.

Re: Not being unnecessarily harsh here...

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

It would not make for a very interesting show if on Forged in Fire the judges sliced tomatoes and deli ham.

When the goal is a kitchen knife there are those out there making them, and they are an exceptional product. My son in law accumulates them so I get to see examples. I use a knife in the kitchen as much as any of you and I do not find these custom knives made for the kitchen lacking in performance.......or price

The bladesmith test vs. the work..

David Weaver

...of the master smiths on their master smith page...

very different!! There's a lot of very fine work with knives that nobody would dream of chopping a 2x4 with. Interestingly, the master smiths tend to make knives with a lighter profile and smaller size (and very neat and artistic work around the blade shaping, finishing, tang and handle).

And bill is right, if you had a contest to cut the most slices out of a 2 inch tomato and some people got 122 and others got 124, I don't think it would be dramatic enough for TV.

They'd have to create controversy and have the loser take beginner's knife and lever it between two desks and hand it back to the winner bent.

A magazine relaying a professional cabinetmaker's sentiments about chisels probably wouldn't amount to much, but torture tests and inferring that the chisel driven furthest (Without any relief) into the side of a log would probably impress most of the folks who have yet to buy chisels.

The first review I ever saw suggested LN chisels and pfeil's second, and the test was to drive the chisels into a board in a way that I don't recall ever mirroring using a chisel.

ditto....

David Weaver

I have some german knives for the mrs. she doesn't like knives to be that sharp, so there's no reason for her stuff to have the capability.

About a decade ago, the yen was about 125 per dollar and much of the rikizai stuff (VG10, etc, with western style handles and a tang) was the same or less than the german stuff - but it's chisel hardness and holds a honed edge for a very long time.

Other than that, I like a little thin cheap knife that can be sharpened all the time and used without worrying too much.

One of cliff stamp's videos eons ago was relating how well a cheap stamped kitchen knife would slice things compared to a fat ultra expensive super hard wood chopper.

Re: Not being unnecessarily harsh here...

David Weaver

I'm guessing at the tv show (?) that you're referencing, but somewhere around 2003, I failed a professional exam and blamed it on cable TV, and haven't had cable TV since

If I had it, maybe i wouldn't be on here going down such intense rabbit holes.

Re: Not being unnecessarily harsh here...

TomD

I wouldn't call it harsh. We benefit from a realistic look in, and they benefit form it also, if they were to run across our musings, and were interested.

But basically, there is not a real use for these things. So what makes it a worthwhile endeavor is that they are making something that is difficult and beautiful, has some kind of reason behind it, and specified features. Woodworkers can get excited about meaningless stuff around the fit of their drawers, of whether their planes can make a flawless finish. It would seem obscure to people who were not hooked.

As a group, blacksmiths are the overall most impressive I have seen in the home craft kind of world. If they need a rolling mill, they will figure out how to make it with a 1/2 hp motor. They are amazingly self-reliant. If I had it to do all over again, I would start with toolmaking. It is more economical, and seems to encourage independent minds.

(I just looked up McDonald Rolling Mill). There are all kinds of videos online. Last time I looked, the only video started with a young woman firing a sub-machinegun.

Here is just one random pic of a master smith 5 for the final test:

repurposed scrap...

David Weaver

..the one exception I'd say there is files. The chisels I"ve made so far would stack up well against anything I've used, but they wouldn't be good open market chisels as I'm sure someone would pry something with them and bend the tangs -but straight in on the cut they are plenty stiff and strong.

The reason I say files are an exception (vs. leaf springs, or used sickles or whatever else) is that files break if they are subjected to anything significant at all, and generally they aren't with their use - they're just a high quality billet of plain steel and if they aren't any good, their teeth show it right away, so not much can be gotten away with.

But aside from that, I did read a couple of blog entries on blacksmithing forums where folks were leaning toward "hey, if you are new to this and you want to make a knife with 1084 or 1095 or whatever it is - get new stock, it's cheap and you won't be wondering if the knife you cracked in the quench cracked because it was defective or because of something you did".

To this point, I've never cracked or seriously warped anything in quench, though.

The files make delightful knives and chisels (if fully annealed and then rehardened). I tried a few marginal chisels to make knives a year or two ago and heated them hot and hammered them - they didn't get any better. That was a good lesson that didn't take much time - don't start with crap and assume you can coax it into having good properties.

Leaf spring knife

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Back in the 50's a shop in Montana made a "Ruana" knife. I don't know if Ruana is the shop's name or the knife branding. The shop's niche was the knives were made from leaf springs from some model of car(no longer remembered). The manganese in this steel provided "superior" knife properties, it was advertised.

I bought one to use hunting. Bone handle and a "skinner" style. Pretty knife with excellent ergonomics for the intended tasks- getting guts out and hide off. Can be sharpened to a keen edge that will not last more than one deer or sheep. Cutting into the bone at the "knees" to separate the hide there does the edge in.

Replicated it by sawing and grinding a piece of CPM3V bar stock. Same ergonomics with an edge that lasts times longer. Moral of story- pick the steel optimized for the intended purpose. The fact that CPM3V is used to make robust tactical knives does not preclude the possibility that the steel will make superior other kinds of knives.

Re: Leaf spring knife

Bruce McCrory

Ruana(?) was sold in a small shop in Missoula when I saw them. Very stylish and trendy for the time and region. Locals who knew of them indicated they were a little "soft". I passed and bought a pair of Whites with Vibram soles instead.

Re: way beyond what I'll ever do...

Oskar

maybe nitpicking, only relevant to swedes (me) and norwegians. Torbjörn is a swede. Close enough I guess

Mono fidelity - PM

Jim Matthews

PM regarding something for your collection

Can't deny...

David Weaver

that the level of finish on those knives is pretty spectacular. I don't think I'd have the discipline to follow through with it.

Construction chisels and 0.5% carbon

David Weaver

I remember George Wilson telling me that some of the construction chisels made decades ago were made with 0.5% or 0.6% carbon or something.

How he described them was a lot like what would be good for a machete or a knife intended for abuse - they could pry open a lid and hold a given shape, but the edge had no ability to stand up for itself in use.

More on Torbjorn

Wiley Horne

This man is talented (and Swedish, as Oskar says):

http://www.torbjornahman.se/

Wiley

out of curiosity

David Weaver

after watching the video, where it was clear that he can work very accurately, I went back a step and looked at his videos. He has a lot of decorative very nice work.

He could easily make a nice set of solid steel chisels. He could probably make a set of five tang/bolster chisels out of solid steel in the time that it took him to make the one that he made in that video.

In the last two days, I ordered a better belt sander (but nothing as far up the ladder as a 2x72 belt grinder - I want to hammer and file and then just use the sander for surface finish, not to shape) and a whole lot more heat, but have too many files in the fire to get any further into this than that.

Unless something goes awry (eventually, I'll try to get a couple of these to you to sample) and I make some failures, I intend to see if I can push a few boutique makers into making this type of chisel for sale. I think it would be possible to make one an hour even mostly by hand as i'm doing and charge $60 each for them if the aesthetics are good. They're never going to sell like LN chisels or something that's made by machine that appeals to the masses, but I'd imagine there are people who would find them favorable. I'm just not the guy to make them for pay as I'm afraid if I start doing that, it'll become a habit and I won't continue to move back to the guitar stuff I want to do, and the tool stuff, and whatever else.

My mother wanted to do things she wanted to do and see if she could make money at them. Then, she found one thing that was sort of parallel to what she liked and it paid well and ....40 years later, that's all she made.